UKIP on Fox Hunting.

Kilroy's Boy · 01-12-2004, 04:01 PM

but isn't the issue the treatment of the animals in this case...Isn't this something everyone can relate to? I certainly can and don't feel I need to live in the countryside to appreciate that.

Just Ed · 01-12-2004, 06:08 PM

You sound like Tories!

Kilroy's Boy · 01-12-2004, 06:11 PM

haha what do you think then Mr ed?

mkpdavies · 01-12-2004, 06:17 PM

Where do you draw the line though KB?

Do rats deserve kind treatment? What about fishing?

The question does involve the treatement of animals, but that has to be balanced with the rights of people who have whole industries based around the issue. I really don't get why people would want to hunt a fox. We are not all the same though, and would you be happy if vegans demanded that you should not eat meat. Afterall you do not have to eat meat anymore!

Just Ed, why do we sound like Tories?

Kilroy's Boy · 02-12-2004, 11:29 AM

i think animals for food is fair enough - after all it's our natural tendency and am sure that eventually we'll find a way to get our food without having to kill animals - they'll be a vegetable that tastes like chicken etc but until that comes I'm all for killing animals for food.

Re: rats and testing for cures I think it's harsh but do we have a choice in our stive to fight disease and illness. It serves a common good for the masses.

Fox hunting doesn't fall INTO phpbb_either of these brackets. It's a sport...for fun.

KB

mkpdavies · 02-12-2004, 11:58 AM

Yes KB, you think animals for food is fair enough, but there are others that don't. Do you see what I mean about pushing your values on others now?

I am with you on hunting for fun. I wouldn't do it and I don't understand why people enjoy it. That is the same as some vegans opinion about eating meat. It is about where the line is drawn, and personal freedoms.

Not so simple really! Thats why I am all for local communites deciding for themselves, there are some issues that are too contentious for a nationwide rule, nevermind Europewide!

Kilroy's Boy · 02-12-2004, 01:23 PM

I hear what you're saying maybe we need to sort out the cruelty to animals in farming to ensure they are killed humanely before we can effectively have an arguement against fox hunting and inhumane killing. I'd like to campaign for that even if it means havin to pay a bit more on me chicken breast to make it happen.

putting your values on other people is a tangled web but at the same time you can seperate certain things that are left behind in our progression as a human race and fox hunting is one of those things being left behind.

less people these days are eating meat and think that will continue to be the case to a point and hopefully farm animals will gradually be killed more humanely and then maybe we'll find a way of creating chicken tasting vegetable. Lets face it if there was a way to get the chicken or beef taste and texture without killing the animals (if it was exactly the same or better) far less people would eat the real thing.

We have to face it that humans have been eating meat to 'survive' since they first grew hair whereas fox hunting is a 'sport' that has been around for a few hundred years though up by a few bored country nobles who decided they had nothing to do on a saturday after dueling became too dangerous. Meat eating will be gradually be phased out and I personally would like to see the animals killed more humanely and good alternatives hit the shelves until meat eating becomes non-existant although don't think we'll see that in our lifetime!

re: the animal testing thing - at the moment it's necessary as there is no machine that can test this for us but eventually there will be and we'll be able to stop it. Until then it is a necessity so that we can continue to survive.

KB

barrymx5 · 03-12-2004, 03:41 AM

This foxhunting debate airs many of the traditional arguments and confirms my opinion that UKIP should stay well away from this issue. The Law has beeen passed and UKIP can duck the issue without any problems - the should we /shouldn't we time is past. The country versus town issue was always a fallacy - the divide is much more on moral grounds (although the class warfare exponents were as usual keen to exploit).
The Libertarian argument is usefully countered above by the reference to kitten burning and child molestation and the tradition argument with the horrific bear baiting in Pakistan. And how many people on this list have seen a big cat down a zebra - it is not always a quick kill any more than the hound and the fox. But at least the cat will eat its prey.
I agree with the parallel with abortion - another highly emotive subject which can lose us votes whichever way we jump.
Forget fox hunting and move on. Highlight policies which directly relate to our need to quit the wretched EU, whether taxation, immigration, regulation, corpus juris, regionalisation, international trade etc etc - there is more than enough there to construct a vote winning manifesto without setting out to lose voters.

mkpdavies · 03-12-2004, 10:55 AM

I agree, as a party we should forget all about fox hunting! There are more pressing issues at hand!

C_steam · 03-12-2004, 11:11 AM

You can't decide to duck an issue just because it is difficult, and also pretend to be a serious political party.

Someone will ask. To decide that since a law has already been passed, you don't need to tackle that legislation again flies in the face of a lot of discussion on this forum and in previous UKIP policy.

You can't prevaricate, you have to have a view. If the subject is too hard or is likely to be unpopular then suggest it gets put up for referendum..............

!

01-12-2004, 06:17 PM	#14 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Where do you draw the line though KB? Do rats deserve kind treatment? What about fishing? The question does involve the treatement of animals, but that has to be balanced with the rights of people who have whole industries based around the issue. I really don't get why people would want to hunt a fox. We are not all the same though, and would you be happy if vegans demanded that you should not eat meat. Afterall you do not have to eat meat anymore! Just Ed, why do we sound like Tories? __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

02-12-2004, 11:58 AM	#16 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Yes KB, you think animals for food is fair enough, but there are others that don't. Do you see what I mean about pushing your values on others now? I am with you on hunting for fun. I wouldn't do it and I don't understand why people enjoy it. That is the same as some vegans opinion about eating meat. It is about where the line is drawn, and personal freedoms. Not so simple really! Thats why I am all for local communites deciding for themselves, there are some issues that are too contentious for a nationwide rule, nevermind Europewide! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

03-12-2004, 10:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	I agree, as a party we should forget all about fox hunting! There are more pressing issues at hand! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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01-12-2004, 04:01 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kilroy's Boy Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Valley Posts: 30	but isn't the issue the treatment of the animals in this case...Isn't this something everyone can relate to? I certainly can and don't feel I need to live in the countryside to appreciate that.

01-12-2004, 06:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
Just Ed Newbie Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2	You sound like Tories!

01-12-2004, 06:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Kilroy's Boy Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Valley Posts: 30	haha what do you think then Mr ed?

02-12-2004, 11:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
Kilroy's Boy Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Valley Posts: 30	i think animals for food is fair enough - after all it's our natural tendency and am sure that eventually we'll find a way to get our food without having to kill animals - they'll be a vegetable that tastes like chicken etc but until that comes I'm all for killing animals for food. Re: rats and testing for cures I think it's harsh but do we have a choice in our stive to fight disease and illness. It serves a common good for the masses. Fox hunting doesn't fall INTO phpbb_either of these brackets. It's a sport...for fun. KB

02-12-2004, 01:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
Kilroy's Boy Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Valley Posts: 30	I hear what you're saying maybe we need to sort out the cruelty to animals in farming to ensure they are killed humanely before we can effectively have an arguement against fox hunting and inhumane killing. I'd like to campaign for that even if it means havin to pay a bit more on me chicken breast to make it happen. putting your values on other people is a tangled web but at the same time you can seperate certain things that are left behind in our progression as a human race and fox hunting is one of those things being left behind. less people these days are eating meat and think that will continue to be the case to a point and hopefully farm animals will gradually be killed more humanely and then maybe we'll find a way of creating chicken tasting vegetable. Lets face it if there was a way to get the chicken or beef taste and texture without killing the animals (if it was exactly the same or better) far less people would eat the real thing. We have to face it that humans have been eating meat to 'survive' since they first grew hair whereas fox hunting is a 'sport' that has been around for a few hundred years though up by a few bored country nobles who decided they had nothing to do on a saturday after dueling became too dangerous. Meat eating will be gradually be phased out and I personally would like to see the animals killed more humanely and good alternatives hit the shelves until meat eating becomes non-existant although don't think we'll see that in our lifetime! re: the animal testing thing - at the moment it's necessary as there is no machine that can test this for us but eventually there will be and we'll be able to stop it. Until then it is a necessity so that we can continue to survive. KB

03-12-2004, 03:41 AM	#18 (permalink)
barrymx5 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Somerset Posts: 20	This foxhunting debate airs many of the traditional arguments and confirms my opinion that UKIP should stay well away from this issue. The Law has beeen passed and UKIP can duck the issue without any problems - the should we /shouldn't we time is past. The country versus town issue was always a fallacy - the divide is much more on moral grounds (although the class warfare exponents were as usual keen to exploit). The Libertarian argument is usefully countered above by the reference to kitten burning and child molestation and the tradition argument with the horrific bear baiting in Pakistan. And how many people on this list have seen a big cat down a zebra - it is not always a quick kill any more than the hound and the fox. But at least the cat will eat its prey. I agree with the parallel with abortion - another highly emotive subject which can lose us votes whichever way we jump. Forget fox hunting and move on. Highlight policies which directly relate to our need to quit the wretched EU, whether taxation, immigration, regulation, corpus juris, regionalisation, international trade etc etc - there is more than enough there to construct a vote winning manifesto without setting out to lose voters.

03-12-2004, 11:11 AM	#20 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Paddling up 5hit creek..... Posts: 7,500	You can't decide to duck an issue just because it is difficult, and also pretend to be a serious political party. Someone will ask. To decide that since a law has already been passed, you don't need to tackle that legislation again flies in the face of a lot of discussion on this forum and in previous UKIP policy. You can't prevaricate, you have to have a view. If the subject is too hard or is likely to be unpopular then suggest it gets put up for referendum.............. !