Thread: The Murder of Ben Kinsella

Originally Posted by The Bear

Thanks, so do I, but how about if the murder in your family had not taken place? Would years of even mild racism not have been at least wearing?

I really don't think you understand what it is like to lose a loved one prematurely. My brother died at 23 (not murder), 5 years ago it still hurts even now. Comparing not being allowed to enter a pub (and no one has even produced evidence that it was because of racism they could have been even more under age than Ben Kinsella, drunk or violent) with murder is so trite it is unbelievable.

Originally Posted by The Bear

some knuckle dragging idiot at the door of a pub.

No prejudice at all there then!!

Originally Posted by The Bear

That's why it has to be kept at a 30,000 ft perspective or the thousands of people who do not suffer a tragedy but just put up with unremitting racist discrimination get forgotten.

OF COURSE personal tragedy is infinitely worse than being faced down by some knuckle dragging idiot at the door of a pub but there’s a hell of a lot more people who would face it day after day after day unless it is kept in the frame as the serous offence that it is.

If the 4 black youths banned from the pub are guilty of murder then surely they are the sort of people you don't want in the pub.

Originally Posted by The Bear

Of course, but unless their ethnicity is a factor in the matter why raise it? The "sorts" that people fall into has nothing to do with colour or race or ethnic origins and everything to do with the social circumstances under which they have to live.

I am not an expert but I believe if the police are looking for witness to an incident it is easier if they describe the people who were allegedly involved.

So e.g. "police are looking for witness to a fight between two old white ladies" is more useful than "police are looking for witness to a fight between human beings"

Originally Posted by The Bear

There is a prima face case for the exclusion of four black youths from premises to which the public have access on the basis of their ethnicity being a crime and that should be investigated just as intensely as the cause of death of Kinsella.

i've just joined this site purely to address your concerns regarding this and tell you that obie (i may not be spelling his name correctly!), landlord of shillibeers, happens to be a black man (and a very wonderful, cheerful, all-round great man at that). the chefs aren't "white" either. and they have a barman by the name of ahmed (who isn't "white" either). several other people working there do happen to be white though, but believe me, they are by no means backwards-thinking, racist morons. far from it.

i can't believe i just summed up the ethnic backgrounds of the staff of my local.

shilli's is a very, very laidback, mellow bar with the majority of the punters being from the SAE sound college next door. i have witnessed just one fight kick off in there (during a lock-in), and it was between two friends regarding a personal matter.

however, further up north road (where shilli's is situated) towards york way is a major estate, which is not a pleasant place (this is coming from a local resident who has been sexually assaulted and mugged twice there in the past six months; i am not just making common assumptions about crime on estates). shilli's often have to turn away troublemakers and drunks from this estate (and other places too no doubt) and this has nothing to do with race whatsoever.

i know that you're highly unlikely to know the place and i accept that, but please, the conclusions that you've jumped to are huge and certainly don't apply.

i have absolutely bags of respect for the staff at shilli's, and your assumptions about them really couldn't be left unanswered. they did illegally serve underage teens, but believe me, if they'd have thought the group were the age they were, they would have been ID'd and refused.

what has happened is horrendous and heartbreaking, and the bouquets, banners and vigil here are a terrible reminder of what's happened. it won't leave this community, and nor should it. please let's not use this as a reason to grind axes about racism or whatever else. please. there are plenty of other areas that issues such as racism should, in fact must, be addressed, but not here. race had nothing to do with ben kinsella's death.