2 years 9 months for murder

Tony Bennett · 25-04-2008, 01:22 PM

How lenient can the state be for murdering someone?

BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | Two jailed over boy's pool death

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C_steam · 25-04-2008, 01:26 PM

Agreed. Ridiculous.

mkpdavies · 25-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Prosecutor Anesta Weekes QC said the defendants were, "vigilantes taking the law into their own hands".

Oh yeah and what would the reason for being vigilantes be then?

Aardvark · 25-04-2008, 01:44 PM

The dead lad allegedly stole a bicycle. It sounds like a 'punishment' gone wrong. This doesn't mitigate the crime in any way, but it presumably comes back to the fact that the police do not follow up on 'minor' crimes. Note the level of recorded crime has dropped massively recently, not I suspect because crimes are not being committed, but because people are looking at their own alternatives for resolving the matters.

I reported an incident 2 weeks ago and am still waiting for the police to interview me. I actually went to a police station and was not dealt with by a policeman, but a civilian desk minder pointed me to a 'phone in the reception. I picked it up and got through to a centralised crime recording service. The lady had never even heard of the town I live in and had to look on some electronic database to see if she could identify the street in question.

The lads who committed the killing would have had no hope whatsoever of recovering the bicycle had they relied on the police. Theft of people's hard earned money and possessions is low on the list of priorities. The lad who was killed is off white (Lord alone knows what words you are supposed to use to describe people these days) which would, had the crime been reported, have made it harder for the police to act. It might be that the killers are black as well, but the rights of the accused greatly exceed the rights of victims.

Tony Bennett · 25-04-2008, 02:12 PM

Aardvark wrote: "The lad who was killed is off white (Lord alone knows what words you are supposed to use to describe people these days)..."

REPLY: When working for LB Hackney four years ago in their Child Protection Department, I used the term 'mixed race' in a report. I was told that the officially-approved term these days was 'dual heritage'. Hackney Social Services had a guide to dealing with different 'races' and 'ethnic groups' etc. which began with these 7 words: "There is no such thing as British culture".

On another occasion, I described someone (verbally) as 'half Chinese'. One of the Department's managers, who overheard this remark, aggressively demanded to know "which half of this person was Chinese"? You won't be surprised that the person pulling me dictatorially into line was female, lesbian, and, er, 'dual heritage'.

Mind you, she was being 'mentored' by a white senior manager!

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The Bear · 25-04-2008, 02:44 PM

Was it murder? Or was it a criminal act of retaliation that went tragically wrong. Judging by what I read it was the latter.

If the two youths had wanted to kill the victim they would have found a much more certain way of doing so and one that required far less effort than what took place.

As I read this story there are three victims and three families of victims. The two lads did wrong but that wrong was probably out a desire to teach the other a lesson, a lesson that they knew the authorities would not teach.

It was the wrong thing to do, it went wrong, but was it murder?

No. Not in my book.

Normally I’m right up there in the front rank of the “hang ‘em – flog ‘em” brigade, but not this time, and there are more wrongdoers involved in this incident than the two lads who were in the dock.

Tony Bennett · 25-04-2008, 05:20 PM

The Bear, the BBC report said this:

QUOTE

"Two men who forced a boy into a flooded clay pit and watched him drown...pleaded guilty to manslaughter".

UNQUOTE

You make a valid point, of course. But in my book, this was murder. The harassed CPS accepted manslaughter. No doubt their lawyers' advice was to plead guilty. Yet, since these three have already served time on remand, in a couple of years these young men, who deliberately killed another young man, will be as free as you and I are

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Hartlepool · 25-04-2008, 05:28 PM

In my honest opinion,the State should have killed them for murder.

Tony Bennett · 25-04-2008, 05:35 PM

Here's a short BBC report, from early 2005, about the killing of a (white as it happens) man in Harlow, where I live. The local reports were much longer:

QUOTE

Race error man guilty of killing

A former bouncer has been convicted of ***manslaughter*** after attacking a man he thought had made a racist comment when he was actually talking about chips.

Laurence Fraser, 43, ***punched Martin Johnson*** outside a takeaway in Harlow, Essex in May 2004 after hearing him say 'there were too many black ones'.

Mr Johnson never recovered from the blow [his head cracked with a loud bang on the paving slabs outside the shop - T.B.], and died later in hospital.

Fraser, of Wharley Hook, Harlow, was ***sentenced to four years*** at Chelmsford Crown Court on Thursday.

The court heard Fraser, a former nightclub doorman, had ***eight previous convictions for causing actual bodily harm***.

UNQUOTE

Of course, he was out in 2 years.

A neighbour, who is frightened of him, told me the other day that he'd moaned to another neighbour of his: "Nobody seems to want to talk to me any more".

Violent AND stupid.

Is this why the murder rate is down???

They're reclassifying murder as 'manslaughter'

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Westcountryman · 25-04-2008, 05:43 PM

It's only murder if he intended to kill him or cause GBH, I expect the CPS dropped the charge to manslaughter because they were not confident in being able to prove this at trial.

I seriously doubt there's political motive behind the reclassification, I expect it's just the CPS doing what they always do - going for the easy win.

25-04-2008, 01:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tony Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 778	2 years 9 months for murder How lenient can the state be for murdering someone? BBC NEWS \| England \| West Midlands \| Two jailed over boy's pool death --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25-04-2008, 01:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Anwhere far away from the cabalistas Posts: 7,451	Agreed. Ridiculous. __________________ -------------------------------------------------- Users on ignore list: None. I've got to have people to laugh at. Cowardly Posters* list: BobFM, Bellatrix.*People who post personal insults then refuse to reply .

25-04-2008, 01:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,546	The dead lad allegedly stole a bicycle. It sounds like a 'punishment' gone wrong. This doesn't mitigate the crime in any way, but it presumably comes back to the fact that the police do not follow up on 'minor' crimes. Note the level of recorded crime has dropped massively recently, not I suspect because crimes are not being committed, but because people are looking at their own alternatives for resolving the matters. I reported an incident 2 weeks ago and am still waiting for the police to interview me. I actually went to a police station and was not dealt with by a policeman, but a civilian desk minder pointed me to a 'phone in the reception. I picked it up and got through to a centralised crime recording service. The lady had never even heard of the town I live in and had to look on some electronic database to see if she could identify the street in question. The lads who committed the killing would have had no hope whatsoever of recovering the bicycle had they relied on the police. Theft of people's hard earned money and possessions is low on the list of priorities. The lad who was killed is off white (Lord alone knows what words you are supposed to use to describe people these days) which would, had the crime been reported, have made it harder for the police to act. It might be that the killers are black as well, but the rights of the accused greatly exceed the rights of victims. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

25-04-2008, 02:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tony Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 778	The term is 'dual heritage' Aardvark wrote: "The lad who was killed is off white (Lord alone knows what words you are supposed to use to describe people these days)..." REPLY: When working for LB Hackney four years ago in their Child Protection Department, I used the term 'mixed race' in a report. I was told that the officially-approved term these days was 'dual heritage'. Hackney Social Services had a guide to dealing with different 'races' and 'ethnic groups' etc. which began with these 7 words: "There is no such thing as British culture". On another occasion, I described someone (verbally) as 'half Chinese'. One of the Department's managers, who overheard this remark, aggressively demanded to know "which half of this person was Chinese"? You won't be surprised that the person pulling me dictatorially into line was female, lesbian, and, er, 'dual heritage'. Mind you, she was being 'mentored' by a white senior manager! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25-04-2008, 02:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
The Bear Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Anglia Posts: 2,169	Was it murder? Or was it a criminal act of retaliation that went tragically wrong. Judging by what I read it was the latter. If the two youths had wanted to kill the victim they would have found a much more certain way of doing so and one that required far less effort than what took place. As I read this story there are three victims and three families of victims. The two lads did wrong but that wrong was probably out a desire to teach the other a lesson, a lesson that they knew the authorities would not teach. It was the wrong thing to do, it went wrong, but was it murder? No. Not in my book. Normally I’m right up there in the front rank of the “hang ‘em – flog ‘em” brigade, but not this time, and there are more wrongdoers involved in this incident than the two lads who were in the dock. __________________ I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

25-04-2008, 05:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Tony Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 778	Murder, but manslaughter plea accepted The Bear, the BBC report said this: QUOTE "Two men who forced a boy into a flooded clay pit and watched him drown...pleaded guilty to manslaughter". UNQUOTE You make a valid point, of course. But in my book, this was murder. The harassed CPS accepted manslaughter. No doubt their lawyers' advice was to plead guilty. Yet, since these three have already served time on remand, in a couple of years these young men, who deliberately killed another young man, will be as free as you and I are ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25-04-2008, 05:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,605 Party: Free England Party	In my honest opinion,the State should have killed them for murder.

25-04-2008, 05:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Tony Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 778	Another 'manslaughter' Here's a short BBC report, from early 2005, about the killing of a (white as it happens) man in Harlow, where I live. The local reports were much longer: QUOTE Race error man guilty of killing A former bouncer has been convicted of *manslaughter* after attacking a man he thought had made a racist comment when he was actually talking about chips. Laurence Fraser, 43, *punched Martin Johnson* outside a takeaway in Harlow, Essex in May 2004 after hearing him say 'there were too many black ones'. Mr Johnson never recovered from the blow [his head cracked with a loud bang on the paving slabs outside the shop - T.B.], and died later in hospital. Fraser, of Wharley Hook, Harlow, was *sentenced to four years* at Chelmsford Crown Court on Thursday. The court heard Fraser, a former nightclub doorman, had *eight previous convictions for causing actual bodily harm*. UNQUOTE Of course, he was out in 2 years. A neighbour, who is frightened of him, told me the other day that he'd moaned to another neighbour of his: "Nobody seems to want to talk to me any more". Violent AND stupid. Is this why the murder rate is down??? They're reclassifying murder as 'manslaughter' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25-04-2008, 05:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	It's only murder if he intended to kill him or cause GBH, I expect the CPS dropped the charge to manslaughter because they were not confident in being able to prove this at trial. I seriously doubt there's political motive behind the reclassification, I expect it's just the CPS doing what they always do - going for the easy win. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

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