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View Poll Results: Your views on immigration.
Not only am I opposed to all immigration, I would favour the repatriation of illegals. 15 39.47%
I am opposed to all immigration into Great Britain & Ireland. 2 5.26%
I am opposed to all extra-European immigration into Great Britain & Ireland. 1 2.63%
I am sympathetic to limited inter-European immigration into Great Britain & Ireland. 3 7.89%
I am sympathetic to all limited and well regulated immigration into Great Britian & Ireland. 17 44.74%
I see no reason to interfere in the free, unregulated flow of migrants within the EU. 1 2.63%
I am a convinced believer in the philosophy of multiculturalism. 2 5.26%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 15-11-2007, 02:35 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Tsotsi (2005)

For what is essentially a gritty tale set in a crime-ridden slum, this is an astonishingly beautiful film. It centres on a teen gang leader called Tsotsi (Chweneyagae), which means "thug", who swaggers around his Soweto neighbourhood with his gang, violently robbing and assaulting with no concern for life or property. His partners in crime are the bookish Boston (Magano), open-faced Aap (Nkosi) and ruthless Butcher (Ngqobe), and together they're add to the culture of violence and fear in Johannesburg.

After Tsotsi brutally carjacks a Mercedes belonging to a rich suburban couple (Seiphemo and Mpumlwana), he discovers their infant baby in the back seat. And he suddenly comes over all paternal, surprising even himself with his desire to give the baby the happy childhood he never had. Although he's going to need a lot of help; so he coerces a young mother (Pheto) living nearby to care for the child. And even so, over six days he discovers it's a lot more work than he thought it would be.

Writer-director Hood has a clever way of combining gruesome reality with more lyrical beauty, showing us in no uncertain terms the horrific childhood Tsotsi must have endured, as well as the stresses of life as a criminal. This is the land of Aids orphans, children who had to grow up on their own after their parents died, and they discover early that guns and theft and drugs all help them keep going. The only real hope for survival is to discover a tiny shred of humanity lurking inside.

The story, based on a novel by playwright Athol Fugard, is an extremely bleak compilation of South African societal woes, but Hood keeps it involving through the open, honest performances and a warm, soulful filming style. The cinematography has an almost fairy tale glow to it, turning Soweto into an otherworldly location that captures the forbidding settings with strangely comforting luminosity.

And the actors all brilliantly convey their characters' wit and energy, as well as their desire to make their life better than it is - no matter what it takes. The actors never flinch from the fierce realities of their characters, but what sets this film apart from other youthful slum stories (see City of God or Boyz N The Hood) is an almost overpowering sense of hope for humanity. We can see that none of these people are lost causes. And they don't need much dialog to convey this; it comes from inside.

Meanwhile, the script adds layers of complexity as we get to know the various people, each with a distinct perspective on their environment - the young woman who reluctantly cares for the child, the cafe owner (Nyandeni) who has the right motives doesn't really help, the baby's wealthy and confused parents. The contrast between them couldn't be more stark, and yet there's a sense that the residents of Johannesburg's various castes are all in this together. And at the centre we have a young man who has never allowed himself to grow up, but might now be forced into adulthood. His story is both utterly harrowing and powerfully life-affirming. No wonder it won over the Oscar voters.

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Old 15-11-2007, 03:20 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Thanks Mountaineer. The next time one of these people tries to tell you on one of those internet sites that the Africans came to South Africa to enjoy the benefits of white civilization or that they lived "well", please hit him for me.

The scenes in this film are like the scenes in reality. The people look the same. The children in cement pipes? Oh, yes, we have seen people living on a rubbish dump in drums with plastic strung between for a roof. We called it "drum town". Can you rush over there and help? No. Because the only help that stays after the champagne and balloons is the kind you can give yourself - with a little bit of luck.
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Old 15-11-2007, 03:50 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kernow View Post
I see by the poll results the BNP are piling in!
Oh don't be so bloody stupid! Look:

allanon, bnpforme, Brendan Scarborough, Britannist, david H, Gramboy2, Hartlepool, Haz, Mikeuk, Millennium3, Populist Lee

four or five of those are UKIP aren't they? In fact I see only one voter who even admits to voting BNP on here - myself - and I'm not a member so I'm not 'bnp' as you state. Get it together man! Perhaps people are just fed up with how far things have come, you know?
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Old 15-11-2007, 06:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I see by the poll results the BNP are piling in!
Have to agree with bnpforme here.
Not one of the current "11" is a BNP member as far as I'm aware.

Just sour grapes on Kernow's part, maybe?
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Old 15-11-2007, 07:31 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I think this is a little unfair Smidgey; some clarifications are necessary. Now I assume by communitarian that you mean collectivist, and these kinds of words usually imply statism. However, the proponents of nationalism on this forum, for the most part at least, do not support the all-powerful nation-state - in fact that is a liberal, modern and anti-traditional idea. Now I accept that the word 'nationalist' has been used in this way - of Chang Kai Chek for example, but it think it would be in the interests of fairness if you acknowledged that this is not true of all the ethnic nationalists on here, who see a strong ethnic community as a limitation on government, as even the utilitarian John Stuart Mill recognised. Not all nationalists believe in race superiority and fascist, totalitarian government. In fact the basic assumptions of most non-western countries, and the assumptions of western countries up until recent times, were broadly nationalist. Was the Monday Club 'collectivist' in your view? I think we really need to define terms.
Obviously there are extremely different shades of nationalism and there is nothing wrong with being personally nationalistic (although I think it is a meaningless notion). The point here is, people like Brendon wish to enforce their nationalism on the rest of society, which is no different than the EU enforcing multiculturalism on society.

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Have to agree with bnpforme here. Also, libertarianism is basically quite authoritarian because you cannot have liberty without responsibility and you cannot be responsible without discipline, both internal and external, and you cannot have a very large group of people with almost no governing power, bureaucracy or policing. That would end up in chaos and anarchy. Mankind is a being requiring order and discipline, like any other animal species, to survive, to make plans, to get agreement for these and to put them into practise.
Hobbesianism is not libertarianism, no matter how much you would like to think it is. There was a reason Locke was spawned out of many of Hobbes' ideas.

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I agree with bnpforme that not all people favouring a sovereign nation state of reasonable proportions and representation are fascists, unless one is libertine or anarchist. Then order like this is considered an infringement. No civilization with this degree of lack in infrastructure and control would ever be able to cohere. If you want to live in city-based units then you need sophisticated and complex forms of government, especially if multiculturalism is going to characterise them. The less multiculturalist the groups are the easier it is to govern them by democracy and the more closely they will work together for the greater good of the community.
There are extreme degrees of authoritarianism - fascism is obviously at the far end. If you seriously think that you can somehow make government effective, you are extremely naive. Many people have tried this again and again, it simply does not work - if it did, we would not be sitting in our current state of dystopia. I do believe in optimal liberty of the individual, this is completely incompatible with any notion of democracy or government above that which is charged with the protection of life, liberty and property.
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Old 15-11-2007, 07:47 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Why must you always speak of absolutes? The maximum liberty possible would be anarchical in nature, and as SF so eloquently stated, the human animal needs boundries, discipline, and order, and this can only be enforced by some type of formal governmental structure.
Firstly, I would argue that anarchy is less free than libertarianism. Think of it like a parabolic graph, libertarian government is at the apex, anarchy at one end and statism at the other. Anarchy would be lacking in impartial courts to rectify abuses of the rights of individuals, this is but one of a plethora of reasons why there is less individual liberty in an anarchist society.

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Large numbers of human beings cannot live together without a sizable and complex system of government.
This is vindicating my charge that you do hold statist tendencies. Man is a political animal, as Aristotle said, we can easily live together without strong and sizable government. However, since you are making the positive claim here, I will wait for you to back it up with evidence.

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It is up to the members of a particular society to safeguard their individual and civil liberties by ensuring the government is responsive to the needs and the will of the people, and to hold politicians and other governmental functionaries and institutions accountable to the people. Limited government? yes, by all means. No government? Chaos.
In other words, it is up to members of a society to establish a tyranny of the majority? You cannot possibly be so naive as to believe that a government can represent all of its people? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into your notions, however, if you were in charge, I would have to, otherwise it's off to prison with me.

Furthermore, government accountable to the people? Don't make me laugh. The government wont ever be accountable to the people, even if it is the 'utopia' you desire, since not everyone will agree. Thus it will not be accountable to them.

Finally, I want to quote two passages from the above statement where you clearly contradict yourself:

Quote:
Limited government? yes, by all means
And:

Quote:
sizable and complex system of government.
Which is it to be? You cannot have both.

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Yes. In the context of this discussion-those who 'seek to control' would be represented by the Eurocrats, and those seeking to 'restore liberty' would be the Eurosceptics.
That is almost as absurd as saying that because someone holds one view (i.e. pro-choice in euthanasia) they are automatically the libertarians. Someone can easily be a Eurosceptic and be a communist at the same time. Heck, some of the socialist parties in other European nations are Eurosceptic.

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Why not simply identify me as a Tribalist and be done with it.
Why not simply answer the question?

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For some reason your focus is on this all encompassing 'State', while mine has consistently been on the un-convoluted issue of maintaining the independence and cultural distinctiveness of the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish people in the face of massive foreign migration from all points of the Globe to the Shores of Great Britain. I become defensive when you throw around terms such as Statist because I suspect you are tactfully employing not so subtle euphemisms to imply that my beliefs could be interpreted as betraying some sympathy with totalitarianism or state sponsored racism.
I never claimed that, the point I am making is that your policies cannot be enforced without huge government expense, destruction of our liberties and the creation of a fortress Britain. To think it can be done on anything less is naive to the highest degree.

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That is a philosophical [typically globalist] viewpoint and hardly a scientific imperative.
Because someone believes that society should interact with others they are globalists? A very odd definition you have there and I am going to ask you to back it up.

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I would think it is in the matter of economic theory that the two could most closely be compared. The state controlling the means of production etc. The communist is -in theory- egalitarian in nature, while the Fascist is Aristocratic. The Fascist State is the perfect antidote to the abuses of hyper capitalism, but, alas, a system which belongs to another era and can only be viewed as anachronistic.

Hmmm... will you next accuse me of Corporatist attitudes?
Nope, but I am going to accuse you of misrepresenting capitalism.

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Ah, so you throw all caution to the wind and definitively reveal yourself as a text book Multiculturalist. Hedonistic, self-centred, and with a soul as empty as the promise of Eutopia. Without care for the generations which came before and all they bequeathed us -what and who are we? Little more than a clever Ape who learned to walk upright and make a decent cup of tea.
Just because I don't support others using force against me doesn't mean I am a hedonistic multiculturalist. I would charge you as being the hedonist, it is you who wants society to conform to your political viewpoint, it is you who wishes to use government force to attempt to bend society to your will. The philosophy of liberty allows people to do what they wish so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.

Finally, I did not realise that those before us bequeathed us the totalitarian mess we are in now. Unless you are trying to give them that credit...
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Old 16-11-2007, 02:23 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bnpforme View Post
Oh don't be so bloody stupid! Look:
allanon, bnpforme, Brendan Scarborough, Britannist, david H, Gramboy2, Hartlepool, Haz, Mikeuk, Millennium3, Populist Lee

four or five of those are UKIP aren't they? In fact I see only one voter who even admits to voting BNP on here - myself - and I'm not a member so I'm not 'bnp' as you state. Get it together man! Perhaps people are just fed up with how far things have come, you know?
Quote:
Populist: Have to agree with bnpforme here.
Not one of the current "11" is a BNP member as far as I'm aware.
Just sour grapes on Kernow's part, maybe?

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Brendan Scarborough: Curious how there weren't any conspiratorial comments while the poll was tipped in favour of the liberal point of view. And how BNP?
I am sure if the poll becomes too unbalanced in favour of the patriot faction, some timely excuse to close the poll will be found.

Yes, I have also noticed a concerted effort on the part of the free love crowd to bump up old and inactive threads to try and displace the immigration thread from its usual position at the top of the pops. Typical.

B.
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Old 16-11-2007, 01:45 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Default Must see film

Kidulthood

Featuring bullying, casual sex, hard drug abuse, complete disregard for authority, organized crime and even murder, if ever a film wanted an ASBO more than an Oscar, it's Kidulthood. Wearing its multiracial "messed-up youth" mantra as a badge of honour.

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This is my manor, coming to an area near you.


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Old 16-11-2007, 02:33 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Worth a watch

8 mile
The 8 Mile of the title is the name of a road in Detroit that marks a figurative and literal boundary between the haves and have-nots. Eminem plays Jimmy Smith, Jr., aka "Rabbit" as his family and friends call him, who is definitely one of the have-nots. He is a struggling rap artist, who bounces around from job to job in hopes of earning enough money for studio time to record his demos, but in the meantime lives with his mother (Basinger, Bless the Child) and young sister (Greenfield, Project 313) in a trailer, the epitome of the "white trash" existence. He is an angry young lad, but his best friends know he is the most talented as far as skillz among them, that is when he isn't on stage choking from fear of the spotlight. As he struggles to earn the respect of his peers, life on the streets always threatens to consume him, from rival crews and gun-toting thugs, and happiness is something that seems to forever elude him. Survival of the fittest, or phattest as it were, with everyone around struggling to claw their way to air time and the ability to pull themselves out of ghetto existence.

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Old 16-11-2007, 02:46 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Default Police to hold talks with gangs

Police are to hold talks with the leaders of south London's most violent gangs in an attempt to cut gun crime.

BBC NEWS | England | London | Police to hold talks with gangs
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