UKIP to the Left of the Tories?

mkpdavies · 30-12-2006, 11:10 AM

Yes I know that's what WE say, but your Guardian reader will ALWAYS think UKIP is right wing, because that is how they have been programmed.

The only way you can break them out of their spell, is to use their own programming against them.

prober · 30-12-2006, 11:16 AM

I thought a floater was something in the river (mainstream) that escaped the screening system of the (sewage) treatment system.

Seriously though, media slovenlyness on terminology shouild always be challenged and ridiculed. All must be aware that "Left /Right"is at least 4 dimensional . eg ECONOMIC ( state/private), SOCIAL ( self responsibility/ pampering), NATIONAL ( internationalist/nationalist), CIVIL LIBERTIES ( state control/libertarian) . .... Actually in current times a 5th could be added... RELIGION ( fundamentalist/liberal).

So from the above , National Socialist Germany and Soviet Union had considerable left/right similarities. As for Blair....

UKIP is right wing cos it believes pragmatically and in principles in private not nanny state, self responsibility, nationalist, liberterian not state oppression... ( which is a typical left wing characteristic. )

The Tory party is a puff ball adopting whatever is expedient ... a survival characteristic through the history of the party.

Tom Wilde · 30-12-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Longshanks

Guess who wrote this:-

"......UKIP is a moderate, non-racist, neo-liberal party, it is to the LEFT of the Tories on most key issues such as immigration, ID cards and the war on Iraq"

GUARDIAN!

ops: Unlimited Board 6/5/05

Answers on a postcard please.

Um, was it me? I've certainly said such things in the past, and I know I did briefly have a go at spreading illumination in the dark world of the Guardian bulletin board.

I no longer claim that UKIP are to the left of the Tories, as the Tories under Cameron have plainly moved leftwards. But in the past, the Tories certainly supported ID cards and the war on Iraq, whereas UKIP opposed them. And the Tories stance on immigration at the last general election was more hardline than that of UKIP, I think, though I forget the details.

However, this year the Tories have swung around to oppose ID cards quite strongly - which is a big improvement, fair play to them - and made various mildly critical noises about Iraq, presumably hoping that the voters will forget all about their past support for that fiasco.

p.s. I've just noticed that Longshank said the poster was a "senior member of UKIP" - which plainly rules me out - but whoever posted that message in May 05, I certainly would have agreed with him/her at the time!

thorsten · 30-12-2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

Is being anti-ID cards (as most of us on the forum are) 'left wing'?

Perhaps some people say it's left wing because leftist organisations like Liberty (formerly the National Council for Civil Liberties) or the leftist Liberal Dim Party were among the first to oppose proposals for ID cards.

I might argue that opposing ID cards is right wing in the libertarian sense because the libertarian pro-freedom right wing are against a powerful 'Big Brother' state (such as the one Labour are trying to create with their expensive ID card plan backed up by databases we are all going to be forced to put out details on).

People from all parts of the 'political spectrum' seem to be against ID cards.

The Fabian socialist influence can be seen strongly at publications like The Guardian.

The Fabian's most successful influence is in separating different aspects of (classical) liberalism from each other - for example separating the concept of civil liberty from economic liberty - and that is why there is much confusion with labels when journos and others try to place policies along the 'left' and 'right' axis.

As Alex McKee stated:

Quote:

The concepts of right and left are almost completely useless in the modern world; rather more important is the Libertarian/Authoritarian scale.

Descriptive tools like the "political compass" try to update the existing 'left' and 'right' terminology to make it more meaningful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

ID cards and the database state? As David Davis said, "a plastic poll tax". No2ID.com have done a good job explaining just what a bad idea they are.

The UKIP is clearly occupying the ground that at some points in its history, the Conservatives occupied during the 20th Century to much electoral success. That's why it's so threatening now to Blue Labour.

This-England · 30-12-2006, 04:29 PM

Just took the test.
Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.36

Which puts me near Nelson Mandella which proves what a pile of **** that test is then.

John Carter · 30-12-2006, 04:35 PM

OK, left/right terminology.

Even though things like the political compass try to separate the elements, there's really only one axis - libertarian/authoritarian.

On the actual political compass, you'll find that a lot of lefties find themselves in the lower-left quadrant. This is a complete illusion, because it's actually impossible for the lower-left quadrant to exist in real life - you can't have social freedom if you haven't got financial freedom (there's no point in being allowed to go to the beach if you're not allowed to earn the money to get there). Financial freedom and social freedom are inherently linked - there's just no getting away from that fact...

...and if folks realised that, there'd actually be no lefties. None. The only reason there is lefties is because they're all so stupid that they don't realise the relationship between social and financial freedom. The goal of leftist governments (and their organ grinders) is to keep the people ignorant of these facts.

And so back to left/right. The left is always authoritarian (by necessity) and the right is always libertarian (by default). Period.

30-12-2006, 11:10 AM	#11 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,112 Party: Libertarian Party	Yes I know that's what WE say, but your Guardian reader will ALWAYS think UKIP is right wing, because that is how they have been programmed. The only way you can break them out of their spell, is to use their own programming against them. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

30-12-2006, 11:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 855	I thought a floater was something in the river (mainstream) that escaped the screening system of the (sewage) treatment system. Seriously though, media slovenlyness on terminology shouild always be challenged and ridiculed. All must be aware that "Left /Right"is at least 4 dimensional . eg ECONOMIC ( state/private), SOCIAL ( self responsibility/ pampering), NATIONAL ( internationalist/nationalist), CIVIL LIBERTIES ( state control/libertarian) . .... Actually in current times a 5th could be added... RELIGION ( fundamentalist/liberal). So from the above , National Socialist Germany and Soviet Union had considerable left/right similarities. As for Blair.... UKIP is right wing cos it believes pragmatically and in principles in private not nanny state, self responsibility, nationalist, liberterian not state oppression... ( which is a typical left wing characteristic. ) The Tory party is a puff ball adopting whatever is expedient ... a survival characteristic through the history of the party.

30-12-2006, 04:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
This-England Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,682	Just took the test. Economic Left/Right: -4.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.36 Which puts me near Nelson Mandella which proves what a pile of **** that test is then.

30-12-2006, 04:35 PM	#16 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	OK, left/right terminology. Even though things like the political compass try to separate the elements, there's really only one axis - libertarian/authoritarian. On the actual political compass, you'll find that a lot of lefties find themselves in the lower-left quadrant. This is a complete illusion, because it's actually impossible for the lower-left quadrant to exist in real life - you can't have social freedom if you haven't got financial freedom (there's no point in being allowed to go to the beach if you're not allowed to earn the money to get there). Financial freedom and social freedom are inherently linked - there's just no getting away from that fact... ...and if folks realised that, there'd actually be no lefties. None. The only reason there is lefties is because they're all so stupid that they don't realise the relationship between social and financial freedom. The goal of leftist governments (and their organ grinders) is to keep the people ignorant of these facts. And so back to left/right. The left is always authoritarian (by necessity) and the right is always libertarian (by default). Period.