Pragmatist

The question is in the title of the thread.

exo-politics

I'd like to see UKIP to stay and campaign for the UK to be reunited.
When people realise what a mistake disbanding is/was then UKIP should hopefully become an attractive prospect for voters.

I'd imagine, and I'd also like to think, that things wont get to this stage.

mkpdavies

No option of other I see.

How fair of you.

I chose Other, if Britain is smashed into bits and the squabling between the puppets in charge follows, then the EU will swallow up all of the home nations in full and UKIP will be banned anyway.

So it will become an illegal group of freedom fighters.

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ukipteen

Yeh Pragmatist,

Thanks for offering an other option.

I also choose Other!

Hartlepool

I vote "Other".

By the by,I thought we were supposed to use the dedicated "Polls" section for this stuff?

Better it was moved there I think.

Tom Wilde

It's an interesting thought experiment: what if we lose? What if the UK is split up and the bits are digested wholesale into the EU?
Possibily. There is another strategy I've been wondering about. It is based on the idea that states in the end should be voluntary and governments in the end can only rely on the active participation of their citizens.

Suppose in ten years time, the UK has been aboloished by the collective efforts of the SNP, English Democrats, the EU and so on. Separate English, Scottish and Welsh regional entities are under the boot of Brussels, with little real democracy and run by a cynical and security-obsessed bureacracy. So long as there is still freedom of assembly, here's what we could do:

We set up a new membership society, perhaps starting with members of UKIP but open to anyone else who wants to join so long as they are resident in any part of the former territory of the UK. We'd call this society the "United Kingdom Society" or just "United Kingdom" for short. After all, as a private membership society, we could use whatever terminology we liked among ourselves. Therefore we would refer to the society's members as "citizens". The society's elected leader we would call the "Prime Minister". The leadership could be elected by a system based on local polls of the 'citizens' to elect local representatives called 'MPs', who in turn would form a ruling body (the 'government') on the basis of political affiliation. Nobody could reasonably stop us setting up such a society, or using such titles, so long as our aims were peaceful. So long as the 'United Kingdom' only had a few hundred 'citizens', we'd probably be regarded as just harmless eccentrics, but as nostalgia for the old UK and disgust with the euro-tyranny rapidly boosted membership into the millions - as it might well do - we would have the basis for an alternative, opt-in national structure.

At this point, the 'government' of the 'United Kingdom' might just ask its 'citizens' to stop paying their taxes to the official EU-run structures and to pay them to the 'United Kingdom' instead. It would then use the money to fund hospitals, schools etc. Existing hospitals and schools could opt into the new dispensation by a simple declaration of loyalty. On doing so, they would cease to claim funding from the EU and start to receive it from the 'United Kingdom' instead.

At some point a little later, the 'government' of the 'United Kingdom' would ask its 'citizens' to no longer obey any rule, law or directive issued by the EU or its regional puppets, and instead to obey the rules ('laws') of the 'United Kingdom' instead.

At some point after that, we could stop using the inverted commas!

Hey presto. How to get your country back without violence, while acting on the liberal principle of society as the voluntary co-operation of free individuals.

mkpdavies

By the way, I'm adding OTHER to the options, because it is fair and because I can.

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mkpdavies

Sorry Tom, but your scenario won't fly.

The EU dominatated puppet regions will simply have the iron boot put straight into it. There will be no opportunity to withold tax as the cashless system will not allow it.

Unless you become an outlaw, outside of the system, trading and working on the black market, using either a black market currency, or something else that is of value, then you will have no chance of survival. The fascist new police state will not take kindly to people trying to live outside the system. Indeed it will use the ID chip system to hunt down and remove from the equation anyone going down this route. It will be almost impossible to avoid being caught as if you aren't giving off a signal that is valid they will take you in.

Of course you could try giving off fake signals etc, but it would always be very difficults to remain outside the system.

You would have to beat the system first, or there would have to be a mass uprising, including the puppets of the state, or the some other element would have to liberate us.

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eublues

I am in favour of the UK, but if the Scots (or Welsh or N Irish) want to be 'independent' so be it - no point in trying to persuade them against.

I reckon that England on its own would be more strongly eurosceptic/ anti-EU than the UK currently.

The potential for leaving the EU may be enhanced in England. Some time later the Scots and other 'nations' might then follow the lead from England.

Tom Wilde

Yes, I think you very rapidly spotted the weakest point in the plan. There is certainly a tendency already to use technology and bureaucracy to make old-fashioned civil disobedience simply impossible. Refusing an ID card? Sorrimate - you'll get one automatically with your new passport. That'll be £120 quid please. Refusing to pay? Sorrimate, we've already taken it out of your wages. Etcetera.

If you work for yourself, you still have the ability to divert your tax cheque to whoever you please - though of course there would be repercusions unless millions did this simultneously. However, if you work for a big corporation who have a payroll department who deduct your tax at source, then you have no way of demnding that it should be paid to a rebel pro-independence group rather than to the Revenue & Customs.

I don't at the moment have a solution to this problem - but I still wonder whether some solution might be possible.