If the UK divides what will happen to UKIP

rjt · 13-12-2006, 07:54 AM

That really sums up the arrogance of UKIP

Education and health matter to people and perhaps if UKIp had concentrated a bit more on them they would not have seen their vote slump form 16% to 2% between the elections of 2004/5

Education and health are issues elections can be won and lost on. The current arrangements clearly are biased against people living in England who find policys forced on them by Scotland and Wales who clearly can decide areas of policy for themselves whereas England has them imposed by Scotish and Welsh MPS.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 09:04 AM

Try reading what I said again and not ingoring the bits you don't want to hear next time.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 09:10 AM

I have read it and it is quite clear you do not beleive people being able to control decision making on areas like health and education is a good thing.

The devolved bodies that have been set up, whether you like it or not where created by the consent of the people. The people of England have been given no such choice and that is cleraly unfair.

You may not wish to readress this inbalance but I do.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 10:44 AM

Quote:

I have read it and it is quite clear you do not beleive people being able to control decision making on areas like health and education is a good thing.

Utterly ridiculous statement. I believe is that so much, that I want the REAL power in this country removed. You, however, seem to want the fake temorary power of a puppet parliament, even though it is just a token to get people to turn away as the EU takes FULL control.

Quote:

The devolved bodies that have been set up, whether you like it or not where created by the consent of the people. The people of England have been given no such choice and that is cleraly unfair.

Devolved puppets. Puppets that have limited powers and powers that will be stripped away to nothing over time. I want REAL power back for the people, not one of these ludicrous expensive talking shops. When Britain has the power to share out, then I might listen, but until then we are ******* in the wind.

Quote:

You may not wish to readress this inbalance but I do.

Again a false statement. You have to stop lying and misrepresenting if you want to get your case across.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 10:52 AM

You may think they are devolved puppets but I think your comments are an insult to the people who democratically decided they wanted them. I just want English people to have a say as to whether they wish to have a similar type body.
Then that body could take a decison on whether independance is a good idea and the question could be put via a referendum.

At the moment English people have less say in the decison making process than Scots or welsh and that cannot be right.

I understand what you say about real power and the EU and I do desire withdrawal as much as you do. But you have to understand that there are other issues facing this counrty, and whilst you may not agree with me as regards this one they all have to be tackled. You have seen what happens to UKIP when it fights on a single issue.

You always strike me as being sincere views, I assume you do not want UKIPS failures continually repeated. ANd it might suprise you to know nor do I.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I understand what you say about real power and the EU and I do desire withdrawal as much as you do.

Sorry that can't be the case. You want to fight primarily for a share of puppet power, over getting the power back to share in the first place.

I want UKIP to give the people of this country a positive option to choose over the other 3 Troika scabs. Part of that solution is to give people their democracy and power back, but until we are out of the EU, no party can do that.

That's why the issue of the EU is the single most important issue facing this country today. Before you can do anything else, you have to remove that barrier.

Once that is done, damn right I want the country rebalancing, but with MORE powers being pushed down to a local level, with only key national interests such as military, NHS, energy driven from the centre. Even then, the local components have to be able to have their say.

I just don't see how spliting those powers up between England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland will acheive anything. Indeed, pushing for it now is weakening the country and making it easier for take over. If that's what the people want after we have returned power back from Brussels, then fine I except that. What they are getting now is a con job, a scam and I don't want England falling for it too.

Yes I want the promise of rebalancing power made, but until we have it back to share, it is a diversion and false battle that will see all the home nations destroyed in the long run.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 12:09 PM

I accept your sincerity but I am sure you realise UKIP will not make progress towards real power until it puts forward a real program for governement.

There are 13 of us where I work, at the Euro Elections 12 of us voted UKIP, at the general election only I did. When I asked people whythey switched two main issues where raised.

1) UKIP where not a party of governement they where only about one issue.

2) They could not win.

So I understand your passion for EU withdrawal but you cannot achieve real power just campaining on one issue.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

I accept your sincerity but I am sure you realise UKIP will not make progress towards real power until it puts forward a real program for governement.

Yep, but for the first time this actually seems to be happening. Farage has accpeted that to oust the old parties, a credible alternative is required. With the Tories abandoning all pretence that they are anything but a blue version of what we have now, the opportunity to take advantage and give people policies that they can't is just not going to be wasted. DCB's policy research groups, on top of all the other stuff on Tax, Education, Climate Change, stuff UKIP never used to put any serious thought into before. It's building that programme for the first time.

Quote:

1) UKIP where not a party of governement they where only about one issue.

That wasn't really true, but I agree UKIPs **** poor PR made it that way. I believe they are addressing that now. Sure the enemies of UKIP (especially the Tories) will keep banging that drum, but the more stuff UKIP come out with, the more silly that line of attack will look.

Quote:

2) They could not win.

That's the same for any smaller or new party. However that's something time and a growing anger with the Troika will fix. It doesn't happen that often, but every now and then a shift does happen. Labour were created out of sheer anger and desperation, these same feelings are building now. I think it will eventually be a combination of elements that finally gets enough votes, then seats to make a difference, but it will happen.

Quote:

So I understand your passion for EU withdrawal but you cannot achieve real power just campaining on one issue.

You would have to be blind, deaf, stupid or a subversive to belive that now. UKIP has banged the drum for Flat tax, Selection and choice in education, Climate hysteria sceptitism, immigration and more. Don't expect UKIP just to pretend the EU doesn't matter any more, because that would be a lie and would be punished by the electorate when they finally work out why all the old parties sing from the same song sheet.

UKIP will always tell that truth, but the difference now is people are going to be given a clear alternative and how that effects all areas of life.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 12:47 PM

I have severe doubts that UKIP will be able to do all you say but I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

You talk a lot of anger amongst people and that is spot on but a lot of that anger results in people not voting at all which makes the need for any real alternative to have some truly radical solutions.

Finally I would say that I would never want UKIP to stop banging the drum for EU withdrawal but I think you might just overplay the fact that UKIP has been trumpting other policys, I do not dispute it but are you getting through to the elctorate as a whole.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

You talk a lot of anger amongst people and that is spot on but a lot of that anger results in people not voting at all which makes the need for any real alternative to have some truly radical solutions.

Apathy will turn to anger one day.

View Poll Results: What will happen to UKIP in the event of the UK breaking up?
Be consigned to the history books?	6	14.63%
Change to ENGIP/SCOTIP, CYMIP	14	34.15%
Disband becuse of redundant ideology	1	2.44%
Cry over their track record of success in Scotland and Wales	3	7.32%
Take a hint and go away	2	4.88%
Other (please specify)	15	36.59%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

13-12-2006, 09:04 AM	#42 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Try reading what I said again and not ingoring the bits you don't want to hear next time. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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13-12-2006, 07:54 AM	#41 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	That really sums up the arrogance of UKIP Education and health matter to people and perhaps if UKIp had concentrated a bit more on them they would not have seen their vote slump form 16% to 2% between the elections of 2004/5 Education and health are issues elections can be won and lost on. The current arrangements clearly are biased against people living in England who find policys forced on them by Scotland and Wales who clearly can decide areas of policy for themselves whereas England has them imposed by Scotish and Welsh MPS.

13-12-2006, 09:10 AM	#43 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I have read it and it is quite clear you do not beleive people being able to control decision making on areas like health and education is a good thing. The devolved bodies that have been set up, whether you like it or not where created by the consent of the people. The people of England have been given no such choice and that is cleraly unfair. You may not wish to readress this inbalance but I do.

13-12-2006, 10:52 AM	#45 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	You may think they are devolved puppets but I think your comments are an insult to the people who democratically decided they wanted them. I just want English people to have a say as to whether they wish to have a similar type body. Then that body could take a decison on whether independance is a good idea and the question could be put via a referendum. At the moment English people have less say in the decison making process than Scots or welsh and that cannot be right. I understand what you say about real power and the EU and I do desire withdrawal as much as you do. But you have to understand that there are other issues facing this counrty, and whilst you may not agree with me as regards this one they all have to be tackled. You have seen what happens to UKIP when it fights on a single issue. You always strike me as being sincere views, I assume you do not want UKIPS failures continually repeated. ANd it might suprise you to know nor do I.

13-12-2006, 12:09 PM	#47 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I accept your sincerity but I am sure you realise UKIP will not make progress towards real power until it puts forward a real program for governement. There are 13 of us where I work, at the Euro Elections 12 of us voted UKIP, at the general election only I did. When I asked people whythey switched two main issues where raised. 1) UKIP where not a party of governement they where only about one issue. 2) They could not win. So I understand your passion for EU withdrawal but you cannot achieve real power just campaining on one issue.

13-12-2006, 12:47 PM	#49 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I have severe doubts that UKIP will be able to do all you say but I look forward to seeing what they come up with. You talk a lot of anger amongst people and that is spot on but a lot of that anger results in people not voting at all which makes the need for any real alternative to have some truly radical solutions. Finally I would say that I would never want UKIP to stop banging the drum for EU withdrawal but I think you might just overplay the fact that UKIP has been trumpting other policys, I do not dispute it but are you getting through to the elctorate as a whole.