Who are the Aryan race

Aardvark · 18-03-2005, 08:08 AM

Actually I did refer to the non-Roman content of their legions;

Quote:

Using their policy of divide and rule the Romans sent legions recruited in the east to help in the governance of Britain. Many legionaries settled and married locals so that after 350 years of Roman rule the Britons were a 'mongrel' race - there are many records in stone, paper and lead of this happening. The Parthian Legion were based in north Wales for a time and their symbol, a red dragon, has been adopted as the national symbol of Wales. After the defeat of Simon Bar Kokbah's revolt in the first century many Jewish rebels were shipped to Britain to work the mines and they were also absorbed.

I wasn't going to go INTO phpbb_detail of all the different types of troops they used. The Roman Empire was multi-racial, but linked by the use of written Latin. Intermarriage was encouraged and Roman citizenship, which held special rights, was granted to subject peoples who adopted Roman standards - Londinium and Coriolanum (?Colchester) I think were the British cities that had citizenship rights.

Aryan has a meaning, the point is it means different things to different people. The blonde haired, blue eyed stereotype is a fiction, but there are certainly credible scientists who use the term to describe certain tribal groups spread across a massive area and linked by linguistic types as much as anything else.

chikrodah · 18-03-2005, 08:34 AM

Sarumano wrote:

Quote:

As far as I am aware, 'Indo-European' refers to the language type. 'Aryan' is fiction, like 'English'.

I beg to differ. A quick search on scholar.google.com (for those rampant academics amongst us) on "indo european"+aryan returns, amongst others, the wonderfully titled dissertation: "Participation of Indo-European tribes in ethnogeny of the mongoloid population of Siberia: analysis of the HLA antigen distribution in mongoloids of Siberia." A nice ethnogenetic paper referring to Aryan tribes, which are posited to have been an Indo-European sub-group. Of course, this is just nit-picking. :wink:

I choose to call myself English; I have Celtic, Teutonic and Scandanavian ancestors, and possibly Slavic ancestry too. If 'English' is a fiction, it's a darn sight more convenient to label myself by that fiction than to spend 20 minutes sounding like a 'Ethnicity Monitoring' questionnaire every time somebody enquires about my national affiliation.

Sarumano also wrote:

Quote:

I do believe there were a number of Parthian archers on Hadrian's Wall, too; what would now be Turks or Arabs.

Parthians were Parsee, or Persians; those good old Iranian Aryans again.

I'll put the soapbox away now.... :wink:

opinionated · 18-03-2005, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chikrodah

According to the scholars of Zoroastrian scriptures, Aryans are an Indo-European branch, who first settled in Iran before migrating INTO phpbb_northern India, Europe etc. However, those same scriptures speak of a 'lost homeland', the "Airyane Vaejahi" or seedland of the Aryans.

As to when the Aryans first came INTO phpbb_being, academic studies suggest they were prevalent between 20,000BC and 8,000BC, with a well-established Aryan culture in Northern India beginning to degenerate by 4000BC.

A 19th century Vedic scholar suggested that the original Aryan homeland may have been somewhere within the then Russian territories, as the scriptures talk of a great migration (or expansion) over many centuries, caused by overpopulation of the 'seedland'. This 'Golden Age' within the original homeland was stopped by the 'rush of evil' 'as a severe fatal winter.... now the snow will not melt' killed off the soft grass, replacing it with packed ice. The solution - to form a protective enclave somewhere warmer, where all Aryans were safe. A frozen version of various flood myths.

Of course, Indo-European is also a term used amongst linguists to group certain sub-groups of languages together. The Centum branch includes Greek, Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Anatolian (Hittite) and Tocharian, whilst the Satem branch includes Slavic, Albanian, Armenian, Baltic, and Indo-Iranian. Sanskrit is a sub-branch of Indo-Iranian.

BTW, opinionated, for what it's worth:

Ich hatte die ursprüngliche Version von "Mein Kampf" mehr als 20 Jahren vor gelesen und entdeckte, daß sie viel widerspiegelte von, was später als Stalinist Philosophie bekannt wurde. Wenn Sie eine Diskussion über einen deutschen Text, anstatt das gerechte Zählen weg von den Leuten, die möglicherweise kein Zugang zu Ihrer ziemlich begrenzten Wahl des Lesematerials haben können, informieren Sie mich bitte. Auf Deutsch.

Or do you need me to translate? 8)

Yes, translate if you wish!

O B

opinionated · 18-03-2005, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The Aryan peoples, as I understand it, swept in from the north west and established their rule across northern India. The Tamil peoples were pushed south, although as with all migrations some people remained and were absorbed - usually on a change of religion. The Moghul Empire was essentially an Islamic Aryan empire. As with much of Islam's area of rule five or six hundred years ago, it was a place of learning and culture culminating in such works as the Taj Mahal and the Kama Sutra.

There really isn't an Aryan type, as indeed there is rarely any real type - the Japanese like to think of themselves as pure, but a quarter of their population is ethnically Korean and there are still Hainu/Ainu in Hokkaido. The Han Chinese are 'pure', but on the fringes they have intermarried with Tibetans, Thais, Viets, Lao, Mongols, Uigurs and other mountain people - the Pia Shua speakers may look Chinese, but their taller, broader stature suggests a diferent origin.

The truth is that, although there may be people who think of themselves as pure this or that, if they looked INTO phpbb_their past they would find all sorts. Famously a KKK leader in the US committed suicide when, after years of railing against blacks and Jews and emphasising his purity a local Jewish group took the trouble to trace his ancestry. They uncovered a Jewish migrant in his family's past and sent the family tree not only to the guy concerned, but to all the other local KKK supporters. He committed suicide being ostracised both as a Klansman by his neighbours and as a Jew by the Klan! I wonder what skeletons lurk in 'opinionated's' ancestry - the odd b*****d, a highwayman, a gipsy, a 19th century Liberal MP??? :roll:

No skeletons here. I've checked. Isn't it funny how the P.C brigade always accuse others of racism if someone dares say something they don't agree with ?
I still maintain Hidus are more racist they Nazis. I noticed no one answered my statement about the caste system! What's the matter, beaten aleady !

opinionated · 18-03-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.A.Ware

Quote:

The Aryans were the pre christian blonde Germanic people's

This does not explain whether the Aryans were Indo - European as the dictionary says or European. The history I am looking for dates further back than pre-Christian.

It also does not expalin how come it's " taboo " to be a Germanic/ English Aryan but O.K to be an Indian one

opinionated · 18-03-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

Quote:

Originally Posted by opinionated

How can we call Hitler a racist when the U.S who went to war with with were racists until the '60s

So there can't be two racists in a room at the same time?

That really doesn't answer the question though, does it

OB :?:

opinionated · 18-03-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.A.Ware

Quote:

The Aryans were the pre christian blonde Germanic people's

This does not explain whether the Aryans were Indo - European as the dictionary says or European. The history I am looking for dates further back than pre-Christian.

I know there is an Aryan India. That's OK apparently. They are not German I don't know the origin of them

Aardvark · 18-03-2005, 05:47 PM

OB, How sad that there are no skeletons in the ancestry that you have been able to check. There will probably be something somewhere if you dig deep enough. You couldn't possibly be descended from the most boring family in Britain, could you? :roll:

I'm not sure that I am PC, far from it. I like to be non-PC from an educated position. In public life, if I chair a meeting I insist on being called Mr Chairman and not the 'chair' which as 'any fule no' is a piece of furniture.

I don't want to get INTO phpbb_a debate about the origins of the caste system; suffice to say that it is iniquitous that millions of people of talent are consigned to menial positions because of an accident of birth whilst complete drongos lord it over them because of the same accident.

You can be an English/German Aryan if you want, doesn't worry me, but your origins are the same as the brown people who occupy northern India. The description a policeman would give you is 'white Caucasian'. You will note that you don't live on the Caucasus, but your distant ancestors did. Migration is a fact of history, none of us evolved in these islands. The issue has changed in the last hundred years or so because we are overcrowded, as indeed is much of the world.

There is a debate on another thread about racism, racialism etc. I know the arguments from many years ago, and they keep reappearing as each generation discusses the issue. I'm never sure whether I am racist or not; I'm tolerant of many things and many people, but I still get upset by the wayward behaviour of certain ethnic groups within our society and I do prejudge some peoples, but largely on experience - the Albanian git who nicked my daughter's mobile 'phone has done his people no favours (truth is he's a thief because he is, not because he's Albanian)!!!

My problem is that my niece is half Vietnamese - my brother has had girlfriends from several races and nationalities. How do I discriminate against her? Her mother didn't want to migrate, but along with many of her family fled her native land in a rickety boat to avoid more time in a Communist prison camp (the family were acolytes of the Thieu regime and my brother's girlfriend spent a year in prison as a teenager being regularly raped and beaten becasue her father had been a senior civil servant). I can't chose not to have her as my niece, nor is there a country for her to go 'back' to since my brother fits your definition of Aryan English down to his fair hair and blue eyes.

Ho hum.

chikrodah · 19-03-2005, 12:47 AM

OB - I'd be delighted to translate; I'll post the translation later.

It may interest both you and Aardvark to note that, in the case of the Siberian mongoloid tribes exhibiting Aryan DNA, (see previous post) that there were no ethnogenetic markers linking these Aryan tribes to Caucasian DNA.

How blonde-haired and blue-eyed are you?

If a descendant of a member of the Bund Deutsche Maedel has brown hair and green eyes, is that descendant less Aryan?

Describing oneself as an English Aryan is a bit like describing oneself as a member of the Twelfth Tribe of Israel - historically interesting but pretty pointless.

:roll:

opinionated · 19-03-2005, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

......or the odd racist?

Noted and thankyou
OB

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18-03-2005, 05:47 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,974	OB, How sad that there are no skeletons in the ancestry that you have been able to check. There will probably be something somewhere if you dig deep enough. You couldn't possibly be descended from the most boring family in Britain, could you? :roll: I'm not sure that I am PC, far from it. I like to be non-PC from an educated position. In public life, if I chair a meeting I insist on being called Mr Chairman and not the 'chair' which as 'any fule no' is a piece of furniture. I don't want to get INTO phpbb_a debate about the origins of the caste system; suffice to say that it is iniquitous that millions of people of talent are consigned to menial positions because of an accident of birth whilst complete drongos lord it over them because of the same accident. You can be an English/German Aryan if you want, doesn't worry me, but your origins are the same as the brown people who occupy northern India. The description a policeman would give you is 'white Caucasian'. You will note that you don't live on the Caucasus, but your distant ancestors did. Migration is a fact of history, none of us evolved in these islands. The issue has changed in the last hundred years or so because we are overcrowded, as indeed is much of the world. There is a debate on another thread about racism, racialism etc. I know the arguments from many years ago, and they keep reappearing as each generation discusses the issue. I'm never sure whether I am racist or not; I'm tolerant of many things and many people, but I still get upset by the wayward behaviour of certain ethnic groups within our society and I do prejudge some peoples, but largely on experience - the Albanian git who nicked my daughter's mobile 'phone has done his people no favours (truth is he's a thief because he is, not because he's Albanian)!!! My problem is that my niece is half Vietnamese - my brother has had girlfriends from several races and nationalities. How do I discriminate against her? Her mother didn't want to migrate, but along with many of her family fled her native land in a rickety boat to avoid more time in a Communist prison camp (the family were acolytes of the Thieu regime and my brother's girlfriend spent a year in prison as a teenager being regularly raped and beaten becasue her father had been a senior civil servant). I can't chose not to have her as my niece, nor is there a country for her to go 'back' to since my brother fits your definition of Aryan English down to his fair hair and blue eyes. Ho hum.

19-03-2005, 12:47 AM	#29 (permalink)
chikrodah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midlands Posts: 1,722	OB - I'd be delighted to translate; I'll post the translation later. It may interest both you and Aardvark to note that, in the case of the Siberian mongoloid tribes exhibiting Aryan DNA, (see previous post) that there were no ethnogenetic markers linking these Aryan tribes to Caucasian DNA. How blonde-haired and blue-eyed are you? If a descendant of a member of the Bund Deutsche Maedel has brown hair and green eyes, is that descendant less Aryan? Describing oneself as an English Aryan is a bit like describing oneself as a member of the Twelfth Tribe of Israel - historically interesting but pretty pointless. :roll: