opinionated

You say "Arabs and Semites " They are the same! Arabs are semitic! As far as I kow Celts originated in central Germany in the dawn of time. they are darker than Germanic peoples.

Mongols left their seed in Hungary!. England is traditionally a matter of Race. The change has only recently been forced


G

chikrodah

According to the scholars of Zoroastrian scriptures, Aryans are an Indo-European branch, who first settled in Iran before migrating INTO phpbb_northern India, Europe etc. However, those same scriptures speak of a 'lost homeland', the "Airyane Vaejahi" or seedland of the Aryans.

As to when the Aryans first came INTO phpbb_being, academic studies suggest they were prevalent between 20,000BC and 8,000BC, with a well-established Aryan culture in Northern India beginning to degenerate by 4000BC.

A 19th century Vedic scholar suggested that the original Aryan homeland may have been somewhere within the then Russian territories, as the scriptures talk of a great migration (or expansion) over many centuries, caused by overpopulation of the 'seedland'. This 'Golden Age' within the original homeland was stopped by the 'rush of evil' 'as a severe fatal winter.... now the snow will not melt' killed off the soft grass, replacing it with packed ice. The solution - to form a protective enclave somewhere warmer, where all Aryans were safe. A frozen version of various flood myths.

Of course, Indo-European is also a term used amongst linguists to group certain sub-groups of languages together. The Centum branch includes Greek, Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Anatolian (Hittite) and Tocharian, whilst the Satem branch includes Slavic, Albanian, Armenian, Baltic, and Indo-Iranian. Sanskrit is a sub-branch of Indo-Iranian.

BTW, opinionated, for what it's worth:

Ich hatte die ursprüngliche Version von "Mein Kampf" mehr als 20 Jahren vor gelesen und entdeckte, daß sie viel widerspiegelte von, was später als Stalinist Philosophie bekannt wurde. Wenn Sie eine Diskussion über einen deutschen Text, anstatt das gerechte Zählen weg von den Leuten, die möglicherweise kein Zugang zu Ihrer ziemlich begrenzten Wahl des Lesematerials haben können, informieren Sie mich bitte. Auf Deutsch.

Or do you need me to translate? 8)

Aardvark

Confused, you will be.

Chikrodah, I note that you ask 'opinionated' to debate German texts with you in German. I wouldn't count on a response, judging by his writings he's very much one of the 'Gott in Himmel! Achtung Spitfeuer!' type. Indeed 'opinionated' has difficulty debating in English

My Struggle is a silly book. It was dictated to Hess and rambles all over the place. I couldn't finish it. AH did slag off the Jews very early in the text if my memory serves me correctly.

Aryans are not necessarily 'white' nor 'blonde'. Some of the Nazi eugenic rubbish showed 'Rhenish' people as darker haired. Anybody who has lived in Germany will have noted Germans with all sorts of features, not because of the inter-war 'experiment', but because that is the way they always have been. Hans Eysenck (IQ books on Amazon) recounts seeing a man with dark curly hair being beaten up by SA thugs in the thirties. When Eysenck went to help him it transpired that the man could trace his German ancestry back hundreds of years and was a founder of the Nazi party - biter bit as it were.

At the Nuremburg rallies (sorry for the English spelling) there were indeed Aryans from north India who supported Hitler because they wanted to see the end of the British Empire. Aryan is not defined by colour of eyes, hair or skin, rather by origins lost in the mists of time, but best expressed in language groups. As has been pointed out the Magyars are linked to Mongols, but many Hungarians are blonde haired and blue eyed, as indeed are Finns and Estonians who are also Finno-Ugraic. Lithuanians, however, are different since their language is the European language most closely linked to Sanskrit. Hitler had Estonians, Lithuanians and Latvians all combined together in the Courland Legion of the SS - shows how much the Nazis really knew about race!!!!!!

Hitler could well have been on the outside of the Aryan race from the beginning since it is possible that he was descended from the Frankenbergers, a Jewish family from Polz (see 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' by William Shirer). His father was Alois Shicklgruber (sp) and some of his cousins used the name Heidler (back to the debate about Hecht/Howard and concealing origins).

This warped idea that the English race is pure is very strange. Brythons occupied our islands until the arrival of Celtic tribes (some of whom, like the Belgae lived in both Britain and north Europe). The Celts were barely established when they were absorbed INTO phpbb_the Roman Empire. Using their policy of divide and rule the Romans sent legions recruited in the east to help in the governance of Britain. Many legionaries settled and married locals so that after 350 years of Roman rule the Britons were a 'mongrel' race - there are many records in stone, paper and lead of this happening. The Parthian Legion were based in north Wales for a time and their symbol, a red dragon, has been adopted as the national symbol of Wales. After the defeat of Simon Bar Kokbah's revolt in the first century many Jewish rebels were shipped to Britain to work the mines and they were also absorbed.

There was a lot of trading going on at the time and prior to the Romans the Phoenicians had trading settlements which were also absorbed.

After the Roman military withdrawal raiding tribes fom north Europe settled - Angles in the east, Jutes in the Midlands and Saxons in the south and parts of the west. Romano-Celts remained in many areas - villages and hamlets with the name Walton are specific cases of Romano-Celtic settlements that remained. Yorkshire dialect is riddled with Celtic words and the earliest surviving written Welsh poem comes from Yorkshire. Celts remained in the lake district and Cumbrian shepherds were still counting in Cumbric INTO phpbb_the late twentieth century (yan, tan, tetherum, petherum, pimp = un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump in Welsh). The Strathclyde Britons were not Scots, but remained in Scotland to be absorbed later - Wallace is actually Volcae, a Celtic tribe.

After the north German tribes came the Vikings who settled (examples in brackets) in Ireland (Dublin), England (Eorwic), Wales (Swansea) and Scotland (McAuleys). England was ruled by Vikings for a period - Cnut, Harthacnut and the other one - and it was only under Alfred the Great that the modern shape of England took form - Cumberland, Northumberland and Westmoreland were obtained late in the day, as was Cornwall.

The Normans (French Vikings) followed and all English aristocracy, apart from Swintons, Berkeleys and another family lost their lands. Since that time the country has absorbed Dutch, German, Huguenot (over 100,000 arrived after the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre), Jewish and other peoples. Many have been absorbed and have also settled in the Celtic areas - don't tell the Scots that Robert de Bruis was Norman French or that Stewart was originally an English name meaning pig keeper!!!!

I consider myself English, but I am aware of my origins. I suppose I am Aryan for what it's worth, but that is never going to be an issue. I don't want the culture that has evolved swamped or destroyed or relegated to second place to the cultures of the new waves of immigrants, but I had a curry the other night, I've eaten kebab and Chinese so I am not blameworthy.

I love history and would strongly recommend Niall Ferguson's book on the Empire for those who want a potted history in readable form. I don't know where 'opinionated' gets his facts from, but it certainly isn't linked to source material.

chikrodah

Aardvark wrote:
Granted, that's why I offered to debate with him in another language. German seemed a good place to start.

Has anybody else noticed the sinister mutation of the EU's motto from 'in varietate concordia' to 'United in Diversity' as per the draft Constitution, EU website, etc. What next? 25 translations of 'Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Euro'? Or is that too much dumbing down? :?

B.A.Ware

Thank you both for your replies Chikrodah and Aardvark, I knew I would find some one who knew their history. The reason I ask this question is that I have been debating this point with an Indian colleague who always says he is of true Aryan blood. Well prior to our debates and my own research I was under the misguided opinion like most people that the Aryan race was a pure blond hair blue eyed European. This myth has been installed in my thoughts from what I have heard about Hitler and his desire to have a pure Aryan race. Now if the Aryan race of people were really a mix of people surely this says that Hitler and the Nazi party had no concept of the Aryan race at all.
Do you agree with my finding that the Dravidians were the original settlers in the Indus valley and were displaced by the Aryans. I only ask this because my colleague calls me a Dravid (banter ) and he is an original descendant of India.

Aardvark

The Aryan peoples, as I understand it, swept in from the north west and established their rule across northern India. The Tamil peoples were pushed south, although as with all migrations some people remained and were absorbed - usually on a change of religion. The Moghul Empire was essentially an Islamic Aryan empire. As with much of Islam's area of rule five or six hundred years ago, it was a place of learning and culture culminating in such works as the Taj Mahal and the Kama Sutra.

There really isn't an Aryan type, as indeed there is rarely any real type - the Japanese like to think of themselves as pure, but a quarter of their population is ethnically Korean and there are still Hainu/Ainu in Hokkaido. The Han Chinese are 'pure', but on the fringes they have intermarried with Tibetans, Thais, Viets, Lao, Mongols, Uigurs and other mountain people - the Pia Shua speakers may look Chinese, but their taller, broader stature suggests a diferent origin.

The truth is that, although there may be people who think of themselves as pure this or that, if they looked INTO phpbb_their past they would find all sorts. Famously a KKK leader in the US committed suicide when, after years of railing against blacks and Jews and emphasising his purity a local Jewish group took the trouble to trace his ancestry. They uncovered a Jewish migrant in his family's past and sent the family tree not only to the guy concerned, but to all the other local KKK supporters. He committed suicide being ostracised both as a Klansman by his neighbours and as a Jew by the Klan! I wonder what skeletons lurk in 'opinionated's' ancestry - the odd *******, a highwayman, a gipsy, a 19th century Liberal MP??? :roll:

Hartlepool

......or the odd racist?

chikrodah

There are Tamil/Dravidian cities in Southern India, abandoned over 5000 years ago, which were packed with brick houses, temples, and public buildings complete with toilet facilities, bathrooms, sewerage systems and wells. The original Dravidians are believed to have been a matriarchal/matrilineal culture.

Dravidian territories are believed to have extended through the Indus Valley INTO phpbb_India, Afghanistan and Turkestan. Even after the 'invasion' of the Aryans, Tamils traded with the Romans and 2000 year old Tamil scripts have been found in Indonesia.

The Dravidian group of languages is separate from the Indo-European group, however parts are similar to Uralic languages (including the Finnish and Hungarian tongues) as well as Altaic languages (which include Turkic, Mongolian and Japonic languages). This could just mean the Dravidians traded everywhere during the height of their culture.

HTH

B.A.Ware

Thanks once again Chikrodah and Aardvark your information is appreciated.

While your breathing you’re learning

Sarumano

As far as I am aware, 'Indo-European' refers to the language type. 'Aryan' is fiction, like 'English'. They come from the same area, therefore they must be a homogeneous group of people (????)


Incidentally, the Aardvark potted history of Britain failed to mention that the Romans were not ...er... Roman. Legio XX and II were Spaniards, IX were ?Belgians, XIIII were Angles or Saxons. I do believe there were a number of Parthian archers on Hadrian's Wall, too; what would now be Turks or Arabs. :wink: