Are we really serious

B.A.Ware · 11-03-2005, 01:46 AM

This site proclaims to be an anti European site and has emphasised that we are not here for general chitter chatter. Well I have asked on two occasions more or less the same question.

Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:55 pm

Quote:

Does anyone know the real extent of EU laws in this country? I know we say 80% of laws come from Europe but do we have the proof for this. If someone has could they post it hear.
We hear a lot about European Law and how it affects all of us, but do people really know the laws apart from the obvious ones like weights and measures.
So I would like to do a list of one-liners that I can use campaigning or drop out in general conversations. It would help if people had the directive/regulation number it sounds more official then. E.g.

Quote:

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:07: pm
Do you know that under European law directive (don’t know it) as from the 1/01/05 it will be illegal for you to fit an outside light on your house.

Do you know that under European law directive (don’t know it) as from the 1/01/06 all new wiring must conform to the European colours and it will be illegal to use the old red black and green/yellow wires

So if you know any simple one-liners like those listed I will compile a list and post it here for everyone to use.

What I am disappointed in is the response, at best it was pathetic with the first one getting one response and the second getting three responses, one saying we should just be general and say 70%of our laws come from Europe. This is completely wrong if we as dedicated ukippers cannot quote a few European laws when we say 70% of are laws come from Europe it is nothing more than pathetic. This is a crucial argument for ukip but we cannot back it up with facts. I have asked for them twice I have received none. But if I was to talk about RKS, Nationalisation or the BNP. How many posts do you think I would get. We all know people like controversy they don’t like the truth. It’s easier to say 70% of our laws come from Europe than to justify it .

Intbel · 11-03-2005, 02:21 AM

This is not a definitive list and there are many, many laws within each category. No use counting them - by the time you have done so the number would have doubled. Rather like painting the Forth Bridge

Competition Law

Environmental Law

External Trade Policy

Fishing policy

European Civil Law

European Monetary Union

Tax Law

Human Rights

Agriculture Policy

Information Society

Internal Market

Justice & Home Affairs

Immigration

Social Policy

Sports Law

mkpdavies · 11-03-2005, 09:48 AM

Quote:

This site proclaims to be an anti European site

Thats where you are going wrong I think, we are not anti European at all!

As to quoting a load of EU directives verbatum, thats one good way to send anyone too sleep. However if quoting how immigration, fishing, agriculture, policing, armies, law, etc etc is not detailed enough for your punter. Then give him some of these examples

http://www.bsi-global.com/CEMark/EUD...e/index.xalter

http://www.cps.org.uk/pdf/pub/29.pdf

http://www.silentmajority.co.uk/Foot...S%20010410.rtf

http://www.bwmaonline.com/Sundown%20...Sunderland.htm

Seriously if you type EC-Directives or EU-Law INTO phpbb_google, along with Britain or British law, you will see a flood of examples to give people.

The job of collating all of this INTO phpbb_one easy to read document would need 5 EU parliaments worth of resource. That rules me out!

BTW, I have had many posts ignored here, don't take it to heart, sometimes people are in the mood to discuss something, sometimes they are not!

11-03-2005, 09:51 AM

either that or like yourself just didnt know the answer. Didnt have a clue so didnt post

mkpdavies · 11-03-2005, 09:58 AM

Thats a little presumptuous !

But true in a way

. I know loads of general examples, but I can't remember every specific case I have read over time.

We have had more EU directives thrown at us, than the UK has made itself throughout the UK's history. All I know, is if you want examples, they are not hard to find.

I'd love a big book with them all in, but the task would be massive, to say the least!

Intbel · 11-03-2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

I'd love a big book with them all in, but the task would be massive, to say the least!

I guess if you have the space to keep a 20 foot poster you just might have enough space to keep such a book.

Sheila · 11-03-2005, 11:39 AM

Who needs a book when there is EUR-LEX on line!!

Seriously, it is a really difficult question to answer accurately.

You could look at EUR-LEX and use its search facility to count how many directives and regulations there had been in a particular period.

You could look at UK legislation (Acts and SIs) over a period of time and check in the notes at the end whether the legislation derived from an EU directive or a regulation.

But that would not necessarily give you the full picture.

People talk about regulations and directives as if they are the same thing and the terms are interchangeable, but in fact they are very different.

A regulation is directly applicable - this means that the text of the regulation applies as it stands. But a directive is quite different - it is an instruction to each member country to produce its own legislation to comply with the terms of the directive but (to quote the treaties) leaves to each country "the choice of form and methods".

An oversimplified (and totally fictitious) example I heard used at a lecture not long ago went like this. Suppose there was a directive which stated that the speed limit on motorways should be no more than 70 mph.

Country A, whose speed limit is 80 mph would have to introduce legislation to reduce it. Country B, whose speed limit is 60 mph would not need to do anything. Country C, whose speed limit is 75 mph, might say - fine, we need to introduce some national legislation to comply with this, we have been thinking about doing something about speed limits anyway, so let's take the opportunity to include in the implementing legislation a restriction on caravans to 50 mph and lorries to 60 mph. All would be implementing the legislation but in different ways.

(I understand that the notorious piece of EU legislation which banned the use of inoculation against foot and mouth needed no UK implementing legislation as it was already UK law and had been for years, and that it was the UK which instigated the move to make it EU-wide legislation. But I digress! :roll: )

Sorry this is a bit long winded and rambling but what I am trying to say is that although you could say that x number of pieces of UK legislation came from EU legislation and work out a percentage from that, it is more difficult to say what proportion of the content of the UK legislation came from EU legisation.

People bandy about all sorts of figures - I have heard anything from 50% to 85% - but I would agree with other people here that figures like that don't really mean very much to the general public and it is better to talk about the effects that legislation has than to quote statistics.

(To digress slightly again, regulations and directives are renamed in the constitution as laws and framework laws, but the way they work remains the same.)

Intbel · 11-03-2005, 11:49 AM

Just as I ws beginning to understand these matters you get me confused again.

The case of the guy who was prosecuted under EU law for selling goods in Imperial rather than Metric (permitted under U.K. Law) is all I need to know.

That the court did not uphold U.K. law is reason enough to insist upon withdrawal from the E.U..

No further understanding of what are directives or regulations is needed.

A precedent has been set ... this needs to be reversed.

I like to keep things simple ...

B.A.Ware · 11-03-2005, 11:55 AM

This is more like the information I wanted . When I said I wanted examples I meant it in the general sense. I did not expect every EU law to be posted I just wanted 5 or 6 good examples that I could use i.e. the domestic electric wiring regulation this is one I can use on electricians. So I am looking for EU laws that when I am talking to potential voters I can say do you know that your business/trade or job is being affected by ???? EU law .Anyone can say that 70% of our laws come from the EU but you wait until someone picks you up on it and asks you for specific examples. Good information mkp, I was not bothered that people had not replied to my posting, I was bothered that as an anti European Union forum (not Europe) we could not list a few examples as this is one of our main gripes about Europe.
Top posting Shelia. Never heard of EUR-LEX, Had a quick look. Looks a good site for research just what I wanted.
See you can get what you want by stamping your feet.

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/index.html

Anthony Butcher · 11-03-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.A.Ware

This site proclaims to be an anti European site.

Anti-EU, please, not "anti-european".

11-03-2005, 09:58 AM	#5 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,083 Party: Libertarian Party	Thats a little presumptuous ! But true in a way . I know loads of general examples, but I can't remember every specific case I have read over time. We have had more EU directives thrown at us, than the UK has made itself throughout the UK's history. All I know, is if you want examples, they are not hard to find. I'd love a big book with them all in, but the task would be massive, to say the least! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

11-03-2005, 11:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
Intbel Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a field near you - look for the yellow and purple tent ... Posts: 4,665	Just as I ws beginning to understand these matters you get me confused again. The case of the guy who was prosecuted under EU law for selling goods in Imperial rather than Metric (permitted under U.K. Law) is all I need to know. That the court did not uphold U.K. law is reason enough to insist upon withdrawal from the E.U.. No further understanding of what are directives or regulations is needed. A precedent has been set ... this needs to be reversed. I like to keep things simple ... __________________ We are all free to choose - every step of the way - no exceptions.

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11-03-2005, 02:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
Intbel Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a field near you - look for the yellow and purple tent ... Posts: 4,665	This is not a definitive list and there are many, many laws within each category. No use counting them - by the time you have done so the number would have doubled. Rather like painting the Forth Bridge Competition Law Environmental Law External Trade Policy Fishing policy European Civil Law European Monetary Union Tax Law Human Rights Agriculture Policy Information Society Internal Market Justice & Home Affairs Immigration Social Policy Sports Law

11-03-2005, 09:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	either that or like yourself just didnt know the answer. Didnt have a clue so didnt post

11-03-2005, 11:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Sheila Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Reading Posts: 580	Who needs a book when there is EUR-LEX on line!! Seriously, it is a really difficult question to answer accurately. You could look at EUR-LEX and use its search facility to count how many directives and regulations there had been in a particular period. You could look at UK legislation (Acts and SIs) over a period of time and check in the notes at the end whether the legislation derived from an EU directive or a regulation. But that would not necessarily give you the full picture. People talk about regulations and directives as if they are the same thing and the terms are interchangeable, but in fact they are very different. A regulation is directly applicable - this means that the text of the regulation applies as it stands. But a directive is quite different - it is an instruction to each member country to produce its own legislation to comply with the terms of the directive but (to quote the treaties) leaves to each country "the choice of form and methods". An oversimplified (and totally fictitious) example I heard used at a lecture not long ago went like this. Suppose there was a directive which stated that the speed limit on motorways should be no more than 70 mph. Country A, whose speed limit is 80 mph would have to introduce legislation to reduce it. Country B, whose speed limit is 60 mph would not need to do anything. Country C, whose speed limit is 75 mph, might say - fine, we need to introduce some national legislation to comply with this, we have been thinking about doing something about speed limits anyway, so let's take the opportunity to include in the implementing legislation a restriction on caravans to 50 mph and lorries to 60 mph. All would be implementing the legislation but in different ways. (I understand that the notorious piece of EU legislation which banned the use of inoculation against foot and mouth needed no UK implementing legislation as it was already UK law and had been for years, and that it was the UK which instigated the move to make it EU-wide legislation. But I digress! :roll: ) Sorry this is a bit long winded and rambling but what I am trying to say is that although you could say that x number of pieces of UK legislation came from EU legislation and work out a percentage from that, it is more difficult to say what proportion of the content of the UK legislation came from EU legisation. People bandy about all sorts of figures - I have heard anything from 50% to 85% - but I would agree with other people here that figures like that don't really mean very much to the general public and it is better to talk about the effects that legislation has than to quote statistics. (To digress slightly again, regulations and directives are renamed in the constitution as laws and framework laws, but the way they work remains the same.)

11-03-2005, 11:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
B.A.Ware Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Birmingham Posts: 4,620 Party: UKIP	This is more like the information I wanted . When I said I wanted examples I meant it in the general sense. I did not expect every EU law to be posted I just wanted 5 or 6 good examples that I could use i.e. the domestic electric wiring regulation this is one I can use on electricians. So I am looking for EU laws that when I am talking to potential voters I can say do you know that your business/trade or job is being affected by ???? EU law .Anyone can say that 70% of our laws come from the EU but you wait until someone picks you up on it and asks you for specific examples. Good information mkp, I was not bothered that people had not replied to my posting, I was bothered that as an anti European Union forum (not Europe) we could not list a few examples as this is one of our main gripes about Europe. Top posting Shelia. Never heard of EUR-LEX, Had a quick look. Looks a good site for research just what I wanted. See you can get what you want by stamping your feet. http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/index.html