How did ‘non-racism and non-sectarianism’ end up in the UKIP constitution?

[Baron von Lotsov]

We are on something like the 6th version of the constitution, and the NEC are currently considering proposals for a further rewrite.

The original was drafted by Gerald Roberts, and discussed, at length in London.

The version history is roughly as follows:



The current (June 2011) version dates from 2006, and your non-racist etc. wording was certainly in the previous version...

Hope this helps, Baron...

Well thanks very much. That makes things a bit clearer. So would that mean the bit I quoted is from 1998? I just wonder how it got in there. Presumably someone suggested it and everyone else agreed to it. I really do hope they take it out and also take it off the Google search as well. That's what gets me, it is in your face every time you Google 'UKIP' and although I might be clear about what the UKIP is, the average punter is likely to get completely the wrong message. See my quote above on the Yahoo Answers, as it seems typical regarding the general opinion on what 'racism' means in practice. It's not just a one off, because I track opinions in the Mail and Telegraph and they don't dig it either. As I have said before, the prominent position it takes makes it look like it is the second and third most important thing the UKIP stands for, i.e. socialism and all that equality lark.

[Tom Wilde]

Oh, the little bit of text you get when you Google for "UKIP"? That was by me, actually.

I wrote it in about 2001 I think, though I suppose I was just updating an earlier version. Mind you, I think my version might have said "neo-liberal" rather than "libertarian", and somebody modified it at a later point. I think "libertarian" is probably an improvement, though I wouldn't say either term is a hundred percent accurate!

I'm quite flattered that some at least of my words have survived in the description on Google for about ten years. I'd never have thought it.

[Baron von Lotsov]

Oh, the little bit of text you get when you Google for "UKIP"? That was by me, actually.

I wrote it in about 2001 I think, though I suppose I was just updating an earlier version. Mind you, I think my version might have said "neo-liberal" rather than "libertarian", and somebody modified it at a later point. I think "libertarian" is probably an improvement, though I wouldn't say either term is a hundred percent accurate!

I'm quite flattered that some at least of my words have survived in the description on Google for about ten years. I'd never have thought it.

The getting out of the EU and the libertarian bit are fine. I have no issue with it in the least and think that it should be there. It's the equality nonesense that I take issue with. The reason is not I personally, it is because I think it is confusing people and it is just one more thing that keeps the UKIP as a fringe party. See the quotes on I picked up from a Telegraph article today. http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/ukip...-eukip-35.html These are potential UKIP voters. They really do want an alternative to the socialist ex-Tories. Libertarian says the same as I do. There is a huge gap in the market and the UKIP are missing the target. It should be much like the Tory manifesto was, as in keeping Britain as a nation state, evolution rather than revolution, rightwing free market, out with political correctness and green nonesense, traditional education & grammar schools and a low tax, small government with more of localism and decentralisation. That's where the gap is. Oh and there is integrity as well. I place integrity as the number one thing the voter is crying out for, whether that be on the Left, the Centre or the Right.

[Baron von Lotsov]

Do you want to see what the public think about ‘racism’? The Telegraph very rarely closes the comments section, but try viewing it from the best recommended downwards and get a taste of how social engineering is not exactly popular.

We either adopt zero tolerance towards racism in football or we don't. It's as simple as that – Telegraph Blogs

The UKIP's political correctness is a disgrace.

[Geoffrey Collier]

Do you want to see what the public think about ‘racism’? The Telegraph very rarely closes the comments section, but try viewing it from the best recommended downwards and get a taste of how social engineering is not exactly popular.

We either adopt zero tolerance towards racism in football or we don't. It's as simple as that – Telegraph Blogs

The UKIP's political correctness is a disgrace.

Baron von Lotsov: There was an Ulster Gentleman named Basil Brooke (1884-1973) Later Lord Brookeborough. Now that was a someone who had no time for political correctness. Prime Minister of Northern Ireland (1943-1965) he said that he would not employ a Catholic on his country estate. In his own words, .. 'Many of this audience employ Catholics, but I have not one about my place. Catholics are out to destroy Ulster.... if we in Ulster allow Roman Catholics to work on our farms we are traitors to Ulster. I would appeal to loyalists, therefore, whenever possible to employ good Protestant lads and lassies'.

When Brooke became P.M., many Catholics (from North and South) were in the British Army serving without compulsion, and often at risk to themselves, P.M. Brooke was busy excluding them, wherever possible, from employment; housing, public administartion, and the Police service. Do you really want a social climate such as that? Voluntary sectariansim which is mutually respected by both sides, Catholic and Protestant schools for example, is quite different from sectarian exclusion unilaterally imposed by one side. When those policies finally erupted in 1969, and commenced forty years of tragedy, did that cause gladness in your heart? Did you read of the daily death toll with a newspaper in one hand, and your etymological dictionary in the other? Social evidence suggests that non-sectarianism can often confer benefit when the alternative is known. Throw away your dictionary and judge things against the social realirty. I thought that I had convinced you of the wisdom of English empiricism? Sadly I have not. Happy New Year, just the same.

[Richard Allen]

I thought that I had convinced you of the wisdom of English empiricism? Sadly I have not. Happy New Year, just the same.

I am afraid that your efforts to educate the Baron are a waste of your time. Learning requires a degree of open mindedness and intellectual curiosity, traits that the Baron is completely devoid of. He "knows" what he knows and doesn't wish to know any more.

[brian lee]

I think it is clear what is meant. Presumably I was at the meeting that approved the wording.

At the time of setting up the party it had to be made clear that people of all races could join. By definition, those parties the media thought/think are right wing are automatically racist. I suppose non-sectarian was not really a live political issue, but it was probably added for good measure.

When I launched UKIP in South Essex in 1995/96. The local Echo newspaper asked to interview and photograph me. Before the interview the photographer wanted to know if he could photograph me standing next to a Union flag and he seemed amazed when I said I didn't have one. I had to produce various items to display for the photo session in which he used all 36 exposures on his camera. Subsequently in an interview with the reporter that lasted an hour and a half it became clear from the tone of the questioning that I was expected to demonstrate that I was a racist. I outlined what UKIP was about and waited for the report to appear in print. Nothing did.

However when I stood for the Westminster Election in 1997 I was described as anti all things foreign. I considered this was libellous and reported it to the Press Complaints Commission. I only did that so that I could issue a Press Release about it which got mentioned on BBC Radio Essex and another local newspaper. In doing this I annoyed the Editor of the Echo and at subsequent elections I told him that I expected fair coverage for UKIP candidates. Otherwise I would do the same thing again. By that time UKIP had become respectable so he did give us fair coverage.

In those days were were all ultra careful to appear normal and reasonable.

[Baron von Lotsov]

I think it is clear what is meant. Presumably I was at the meeting that approved the wording.

At the time of setting up the party it had to be made clear that people of all races could join. By definition, those parties the media thought/think are right wing are automatically racist. I suppose non-sectarian was not really a live political issue, but it was probably added for good measure.

When I launched UKIP in South Essex in 1995/96. The local Echo newspaper asked to interview and photograph me. Before the interview the photographer wanted to know if he could photograph me standing next to a Union flag and he seemed amazed when I said I didn't have one. I had to produce various items to display for the photo session in which he used all 36 exposures on his camera. Subsequently in an interview with the reporter that lasted an hour and a half it became clear from the tone of the questioning that I was expected to demonstrate that I was a racist. I outlined what UKIP was about and waited for the report to appear in print. Nothing did.

However when I stood for the Westminster Election in 1997 I was described as anti all things foreign. I considered this was libellous and reported it to the Press Complaints Commission. I only did that so that I could issue a Press Release about it which got mentioned on BBC Radio Essex and another local newspaper. In doing this I annoyed the Editor of the Echo and at subsequent elections I told him that I expected fair coverage for UKIP candidates. Otherwise I would do the same thing again. By that time UKIP had become respectable so he did give us fair coverage.

In those days were were all ultra careful to appear normal and reasonable.

Well yes, your experiences echo of my experiences of the press. I was on TV once and I have also been featured on the front page of a local newspaper (once for running a pirate radio station!). The press are a funny lot. Some are really decent people and others want to mould you into their stereotype. I have never owned a union jack in my life, although I always buy British when I can. Once I was part of a group who set up a nightclub rave kind of thing in Portugal and we had an admission policy of “No Union Jack Shorts” on the fliers. The moral of this is everyone is different. Everyone has a unique DNA and part of the enjoyment of life is that this is so.

I don’t really get on with blacks. I don’t hate them for who they are, but I hate them invading our country. These should not be confused by the over-simplification of society by the socialist media. We as a nation were never for immigration right from the very start. In the early days mobs of British youths used to go round attacking them and pubs had no blacks admission policies. That is not because we wanted immigration. We didn’t, but it was forced on us. The lack of obedience of the government to the wishes of the people is a big part of the problem and creates resentment.

The UKIP should not try and pretend to be anything. Their duty is to serve the wishes of the electorate or they will not be voted for. I have always been who I am and given honest opinions even when they clash. I might be right or I might be wrong, but as for desire, I’m always right because I’m the customer. This is the first rule of capitalism – the customer is always right. We saw this the other day with Cameron. The BBC were on a 24hr shift dragging out the grim news about the veto, but the opinion polls shot up for the Cons. For once they had done what the people wanted, and no press, not even the BBC could shoot them down. The BBC is the largest media corporation in the world. In reality they are paper tigers.

[Barboo]

after 183 hits on this thread we are still no closer to establishing whose idiotic idea this was in the first place. Perhaps if someone from the UKIP could at least let me know when this constitution was put together we might be a bit closer.

The words 'non-racism and non-sectarianism' first appeared in the UKIP constitution following a ballot of members in June 2003, as an amendment to the 1998 version. The change was proposed by the NEC of the time, under the leadership of Roger Knapman.

[Niall Warry]

I am afraid that your efforts to educate the Baron are a waste of your time. Learning requires a degree of open mindedness and intellectual curiosity, traits that the Baron is completely devoid of. He "knows" what he knows and doesn't wish to know any more.

Well put I agree!