Article: STV Is A Poor Choice For Reform

[Anthony Butcher]

If its policys are what the people support why did the Lib Dems do so badly in last Thursdays elections,

Because a minority of Lib Dem voters were unhappy with the coalition decisions over student fees and other decisions, and the Lib Dems need to sack their PR people!

do you also think that if Mr Miliband or Mr Cameron become PM after the next election with a majority that they will be intrested in PR?

They aren't interested now. Why would that change?

How in any way or in any action has this coalition been a good thing?

The alternative was a pure Conservative government, and 2/3 of the policies being brought in are Conservative policies. A smaller proportion are Lib Dem policies or at least an agreed compromise. The fact that the Tories have to modify some of their behaviour and take note of another party that had 23% national support is a GOOD THING. I can't believe that you are actually arguing that it is better to have MPs who represent just 36% of the voters running the Government than a larger coalition of 59% support.

[rjt]

Because a minority of Lib Dem voters were unhappy with the coalition decisions over student fees and other decisions, and the Lib Dems need to sack their PR people!


They aren't interested now. Why would that change?


The alternative was a pure Conservative government, and 2/3 of the policies being brought in are Conservative policies. A smaller proportion are Lib Dem policies or at least an agreed compromise. The fact that the Tories have to modify some of their behaviour and take note of another party that had 23% national support is a GOOD THING. I can't believe that you are actually arguing that it is better to have MPs who represent just 36% of the voters running the Government than a larger coalition of 59% support.

I am not that is why i want Direct Democracy, i would say to you tution fees and economic decisions taken by the Lib Dems are clearly affecting them, thats because they broke their promises!

But there is a wider issue you are ignoring in you desire for permanent centre left coalitions! The junior partners in coalition at Westminister and Wales fell backwards, a minority government advanced, people are suspicious of coalitions in this country.

Please tell me again how PR helps this country become an independent nation state again? Opps no you nailed your colours to the Lib Dem mast sometime ago in a serach for PR, I said at the time you would be betryared because some shoddy deal would be done and it was, you still went along with it and your side lost the argument.

[Citizen67]

The LibDems ar good for thing, they may get us PR

the only other good thing they could do is replace Labour as the party of the Left.

[Anthony Butcher]

But there is a wider issue you are ignoring in you desire for permanent centre left coalitions!

I have no desire for permanent centre left coalitions, nor have I ever said anything even remotely like that. I want PR, which could lead to any kind of coalition, including the centre right coalition we have now. It could lead to minority or majority Government too, if that is what the people want. At the moment no party has majority support, so no single party should be governing.

The junior partners in coalition at Westminister and Wales fell backwards, a minority government advanced, people are suspicious of coalitions in this country.

It's self balancing then.

Please tell me again how PR helps this country become an independent nation state again?

That's not the aim of PR. I support electoral reform because it is the right and democratic thing to do.

Having said that, PR could potentially do a lot to help Britain move towards independence. Firstly it will give seats to the eurosceptic parties. UKIP could expect 20-40 MPs and that would make a huge difference. They might be joined by an English Democrat or two as well. The BNP would probably have a couple if their decline doesn't continue.

Once they have MPs, they have the opportunity to professionalise and become electable to a greater number of people. If they get enough MPs, they could become a potential coalition party and demand a referendum on EU membership as the price.

Opps no you nailed your colours to the Lib Dem mast sometime ago in a serach for PR, I said at the time you would be betryared because some shoddy deal would be done and it was, you still went along with it and your side lost the argument.

Better to give them the chance to disappoint than waste my vote.

[Citizen67]

If you want Direct Democracy you need PR first!

[rjt]

The whole point about democracy is that it gives power to the people, PR doesnt do that it gives it to the political elite and encourages more backroom dealing and even less honesty

And on the subject of centre left coalitions when in the last 100 years has this country voted proportionally for anything less.

And the Lib Dems are a wasted vote because they do nothing to make the country more democratic.

[rjt]

i was wondering as well if after the inconclusive result in the last GE whether those supporting PR would say that an Lab/Lib/SDLP/SNP/PC/Green alliance would have had legitamacy as a government or would a Con/DUP/SNP alliance have had legitmacy?

[Anthony Butcher]

i was wondering as well if after the inconclusive result in the last GE whether those supporting PR would say that an Lab/Lib/SDLP/SNP/PC/Green alliance would have had legitamacy as a government or would a Con/DUP/SNP alliance have had legitmacy?

As long as they collectively represent over 50% of the vote I think that they would be legitimate, yes.

[rjt]

As long as they collectively represent over 50% of the vote I think that they would be legitimate, yes.

So you are saying that denying a party clearly ahead in terms of seats and 2 million more votes than the second placed party any say in government would be legitmate and that propping up a prime Minister that has just lost nearly 100 seats in the Primary legislative body of the UK is ok? And that such a coalition would be both in the national intrest and would provide stable governement based on principles?

[trampjuice]

I fought hard against AV, I thought it was a system which would change politics for the worse, with a 2 party state and party machine dominating politics plus the probability of more broken promises. Like most people I opposed a system which would reward the LibDems.

However, like most people, I also think there is a vast democratic deficit between what people want (Less immigration, Our own Laws etc..) and the political agenda of the party elites.

Italy or Greece fractious pure PR scenario with multiple governments in a year is a horror story to most people. A commitee deciding whats the best flavour icecream - under PR they will take forever and likely result in a squabbling mess of opinion with no resolution. You need a majority authority/leadership right or wrong to make decisions. However - you still want them to take into account some of the stronger opinions being voiced.

Because of the obvious democratic deficit under our current system, I think most people would favour a TOP-UP PR system of additional MPs on a party basis - *even if it meant coalitions* - to keep the self serving political elite in check.