UKIP - vs - EUKIP

[Gothmog]

As the Euro crisis deepens whose fault is it that UKIP's voice is not really heard on this matter?

Eric's good summary this week of the situation points at EUKIP's third division status:-

Dr. Eric Edmond's Blog: And still the EU wants more of our money

Also as GLW has been saying for years where is UKIP's Exit and Survival Strategy for life after the EU?

Sadly EUKIP has no vision, plan, strategy or tactics led as they are by someone whose main concern is his own self enrichment.

I gather Stuart Wheeler may be regretting his gamble of backing UKIP. Just as he had a 'Crisis of Trust' with the Conservative Party maybe one is developing with EUKIP.

BTW anyone know how many EUKIP MEPs have responded to his match funding offer?

Please link us to info about Wheeler regretting backing UKIP.
You seem able to keep linking us to blogs that spout total rubbish and spin, so surely you have a source for the info on wheeler.

[Niall Warry]

Here is Eric's rebuttal of the EUKIP spinmasters spin.

Dr. Eric Edmond's Blog: Farage's UKIP leadership failure re-visited

[Baron von Lotsov]

Very quickly for now:

We know that Eric Edmond is very keen for UKIP to work as closely as possible with Nick Griffin and the BNP. In that context how do you and he explain the "tremendous success" of the FN in the recent cantonal elections? Could the "dismal failure" of the FN in those elections have anything to do with the French electoral system?

With 3.1% of the vote UKIP would have gained at least 20 seats under pure PR. 20 UKP MPs would be far more influential than no UKIP MPs regardless of the UKIP vote share.

The FPTP system is the way it is for a reason. You don't want lunatics running the country, so the idea that you have to clear a majority is actually very good. The UKIP's problem is that it has not got there yet. This is obvious to me. Could the UKIP form a cabinet and run the country if it won the general election tomorrow? It's just not fit for government, but very slowly it is heading in that direction. It's a difficult task, but then that is good because only the best can get to run the UK. Many in the UKIP underestimate the abilities of the competition. They are not trying to sharpen up their own abilities, because they use the PR argument as an excuse and that makes them look weak. Finally Nigel Farage looks like a broken record on the TV sometimes. ‘It’s all the EU’s fault’, is what you know he is going to say everytime. It seems that to him it is always someone else’s fault, as in he is of that kind of state of mind and this is indicative of a weak person. A strong person looks to themselves first and is their own worst critic. They constantly asked themselves ‘how can I do better next time’. I mean in essence a bit of humility is a good thing. Pride always comes before the fall.

It does look a bit like Farage is picking some weak people for important positions in the party. I don't think too much of that Lisa Duffy person myself as she made a real hash of the youth division, and there was someone else who was appointed the other day who looked a bit weak as well from he Southwest. I think the party needs a bit of new blood in it, and some ultra sharp people who really know how to achieve things. I mean like people who have been very successful in business and that sort of thing.

[Gothmog]

Here is Eric's rebuttal of the EUKIP spinmasters spin.

Dr. Eric Edmond's Blog: Farage's UKIP leadership failure re-visited

Funny he can not even defend his own bile properly LOL
The Finn's use a proportional d'Hondt voting system and if we used that in the UK Nigel's UKIP would be have won a LibDem number of seats and NF would be in Dave's coalition cabinet along with Nuttall, Bloom etc. It's laughabable! Farage supports the AV system which is not a proportional system and is no better than fptp and possibly worse.
So he agrees that what people say is true in that under PR, UKIP would have MP's. But he they says people are wrong as farage supports AV??
The two points are completely seperate.
The GE has happened. With PR UKIP would have seats so would be doing as finns do.
AV support is for future GE's. (which i dont agree with, AV is just bollox)

His next sections are really even more crazy defence of his views.
Compare finns 70% turnout with euro 30%?!?!?!
Yet his original statements days before was talking out UK GE and poll results.
So now the his original statement was shown to be an epic fail, he trys to bring in the Euro elections into it???
Sorry Naill, but your 'leader' can not keep facts straight and can not even defend his facts in a straight way.
Simple fact he can not dispute.
If the UK had the same voting system as the Finns in the last GE then UKIP would now have some MP's.
So if UKIP would have MP's under that system, then how can get be doing bad compared to the true finns?

PS.
Please ask Eric to post on his blog how he was illegally ejected from the NEC. After all when the rest of his posts are false and spin then how are we to know that not bollox as well?
PPS.
I did not vote for Nigel as leader and dont defend him. But if you and your 'leader' keep comng out with total bollox then i will point it out. Same as i would point out bollox by others against eric if there was facts showing it was bollox.

[Revontulet]

Eric Edmond:
The second line of attack by the Faragistas on my comparison of the True Finn's excellent performance and Farage's UKIP's mediocre performance was another straight out of the Nigel book of excuses for electoral failure. The Finn's use a proportional d'Hondt voting system and if we used that in the UK Nigel's UKIP would be have won a LibDem number of seats and NF would be in Dave's coalition cabinet along with Nuttall, Bloom etc. It's laughabable! Farage supports the AV system which is not a proportional system and is no better than fptp and possibly worse.

Yes, Farage supports AV in this referendum but that is because it is the best on offer. Nigel has repeatedly said that he would prefer AV+ (a proportional system), so that argument is wrong.

[Baron von Lotsov]

The EU is no shining light of democracy and it uses PR. The Lib Dems are known traitors of Britain and they fancy PR. The UKIP should really be thinking about the greater good of the country. Imagine having 20 green MPs in parliament. We know the kind of lunacy the EU parliament votes for, whereas the FPTP system has served Britain well for hundreds of years. The EU won't last a fraction of that. It's too damn crazy to last that long. Any step away from democracy is a bad thing. Indeed that is the way we are going, as we see people like Greenpeace overturn the will of the government in the High Court, and experts deciding what is good for us. In short Nigel Farage should back right off this AV business. He is making the UKIP look as woolly as the Lib Dems. It would be far better just to leave the Lib Dems out on a limb, and besides Tories don't like AV either, so if we want their support then it's time the UKIP is made to look a bit more serious. AV is a distraction and I don't believe people will vote for it anyway. Did you hear what Clegg was saying recently? He's going loopy, threatening to take the Tories to court over the campaign. I mean to me that sounds like a loser, as well as a bad sportsman.

[Independent UKIP]

Here is Eric's rebuttal of the EUKIP spinmasters spin.

Dr. Eric Edmond's Blog: Farage's UKIP leadership failure re-visited

For once, thanks for linking to that anti-UKIP blog. If there is any rebuttal still to be made after Gothmog and any others have made their comments I will make it here another day.

For now I fully accept the following from Edmond:

I am not a member of the BNP.
I have never been a member of the BNP.
I have never been to a BNP meeting.
I have never met Nick Griffin

Who has ever suggested anything to the contrary? I was very careful (knowing his like for the legal profession) to avoid any suggestion that Edmond is now or has ever been in the past a supporter of the BNP. Why does Edmond in his own very careful use of words not mention the words "support" or "supporter"?

Edmond believes UKIP should be neutered and destroyed from within. That is his agenda for UKIP.

[Niall Warry]

For once, thanks for linking to that anti-UKIP blog. If there is any rebuttal still to be made after Gothmog and any others have made their comments I will make it here another day.

For now I fully accept the following from Edmond:



Who has ever suggested anything to the contrary? I was very careful (knowing his like for the legal profession) to avoid any suggestion that Edmond is now or has ever been in the past a supporter of the BNP. Why does Edmond in his own very careful use of words not mention the words "support" or "supporter"?

Edmond believes UKIP should be neutered and destroyed from within. That is his agenda for UKIP.

But most of those who want EUKIP to return to being UKIP and become a force to be reckoned with understand that EUKIP will need to be completely rebuilt ( Neutered and destroyed are your words) because as it is EUKIP is nothing but a hinderance to the anti-EU cause.

The reason EUKIP is a hinderance is two fold:-

1. Nobody serious will join or support EUKIP while Nigel is leader.
2. While it exists in its current form it prevents anything better taking its place.

However as I have said before I now think EUKIP is largely beyond reform and just a complete irrelevance.

[Gothmog]

But most of those who want EUKIP to return to being UKIP and become a force to be reckoned with understand that EUKIP will need to be completely rebuilt ( Neutered and destroyed are your words) because as it is EUKIP is nothing but a hinderance to the anti-EU cause.

The reason EUKIP is a hinderance is two fold:-

1. Nobody serious will join or support EUKIP while Nigel is leader.
2. While it exists in its current form it prevents anything better taking its place.

However as I have said before I now think EUKIP is largely beyond reform and just a complete irrelevance.

LOL
no blogs like eric and GLW are the complete irrelevance. Shown by the numbers and type who follow them.(all 15 of them in Eric's case...)
Its funny all these people, you included, all cry and moan about Nigel and UKIP and what they are doing is wrong but I have yet to see any suggestions what you are any of the blog writters would do instead, and sorry but simply saying 'there should be a plan' is not a suggestion.
The fact that all the ones crying and moaning are people who could not stand the heat of the NEC or Nigel shows that infact they were political no-bodys and its probabaly good they could not hack it and left UKIP because if they ever did get into a proper position where real pressure was on they would have folded then and been bad for the party.

You see many UKIP members are not happy about various policy or things that happen, but then members of all partys are the same and never agree with everything. But the grass root members just do their own thing and keep things moving and growing. People like Eric and Greg wanted the short cut and thought they had what it took to be at the top, but sadly they did not, they failed and now want to blame all others for their failure.

When you or them have a credible plan of action, then please post it and you and them maybe then taken serious. Untill that point, you are all just seen as sad bitter little men whose life is now consumed with trying to write spin against Nigel for 15 or so people to read...

[Revontulet]

The EU is no shining light of democracy and it uses PR. The Lib Dems are known traitors of Britain and they fancy PR. The UKIP should really be thinking about the greater good of the country. Imagine having 20 green MPs in parliament. We know the kind of lunacy the EU parliament votes for, whereas the FPTP system has served Britain well for hundreds of years. The EU won't last a fraction of that. It's too damn crazy to last that long. Any step away from democracy is a bad thing. Indeed that is the way we are going, as we see people like Greenpeace overturn the will of the government in the High Court, and experts deciding what is good for us. In short Nigel Farage should back right off this AV business. He is making the UKIP look as woolly as the Lib Dems. It would be far better just to leave the Lib Dems out on a limb, and besides Tories don't like AV either, so if we want their support then it's time the UKIP is made to look a bit more serious. AV is a distraction and I don't believe people will vote for it anyway. Did you hear what Clegg was saying recently? He's going loopy, threatening to take the Tories to court over the campaign. I mean to me that sounds like a loser, as well as a bad sportsman.

Whats wrong with having 20 Green MP's? If that is what the people voted for that is what they should get. FPTP is a fundementally undemocratic system, any form of PR would be better and UKIP should support it.