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Thread: Article: Why Eurosceptics should support AV

  1. #21
    Administrator Anthony Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Englander View Post
    Significance is relative and should not be confused with current importance, which is also relative according to the terms of reference.

    UKIP, or any other party is significant to those who vote for it and those who will start to vote for it, because of its policies, such as a policy on granting referenda. Some voters may think a commitment to direct democracy makes a party very significant and it should not be dismissed out of hand.
    Fair enough, but I simply meant it in terms of it actually being implemented in the near future. As things stand, UKIP has no way of influencing the political debate to get DD implemented.
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  2. #22
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    Default The Democratic Renaissance Can Offer a Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Englander View Post
    Anthony Butcher posted;
    "As for Direct Democracy, as far as I am aware there isn't a single significant political party putting it forward as a priority suggestion. Until that happens, DD just isn't on the cards." Endquote

    The Constitution: UKIP policy
    Direct Democracy & Referenda
    UKIP would introduce ‘Direct Democracy’ whereby a fixed proportion of the electorate, depending on the nature of the constituency (and normally 5%), sign a petition demanding a referendum on any “qualifying issue” that concerns them, within a 6 month period for national petitions and three months for local petitions, shall be granted a referendum, and the results will be binding.
    The Constitution: UKIP Policy - UK Independence Party
    ***************

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    The ethnic English do exist: Here is an example;
    English girl barred from Government job...because she is wrong kind of white | Mail Online

    The greatest obstacle to political change has always been the apathy of the electorate.

    I agree with Millennium that a NO vote on the AV referendum would be a good start to introduce more democratic rule for the common man and woman. Although it is counter intuitive, a NO vote would show that the electorate would see that they (the voters), are only being offered electoral reform - and not any REAL democratic power.

    If UKIP offers a platform of DD with sincerity, then other parties would have no choice but to offer the same.

    An excellent example is the following...
    B.C. HST referendum to be binding
    B.C. premier lowers the threshold for axing the Harmonized Sales Tax
    Last Updated: Monday, September 13, 2010 | 6:02 PM PT
    CBC News
    If British Columbians vote against the HST in a referendum, the province will dump the controversial tax, says B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell.

    Campbell said the issue will be decided by a simple majority in a referendum to be held Sept. 24, 2011, and if more than 50 per cent of those who vote want the tax gone, the Liberal government will get out of the tax deal with Ottawa.

    The move dramatically lowers the threshold of what the legislation requires the province to do after a petition like the one against the HST has met the required number of signatures.

    Under the legislation, the referendum is non-binding and has extremely difficult rules to allow it to pass, requiring the majority of votes from registered voters in each riding.

    Earlier Monday, a legislative committee decided to send the HST to a referendum rather than put it to a vote this fall in the provincial legislature.

    The committee had the option of sending a draft bill repealing the HST to the legislature or calling for a referendum called an Initiative Vote.

    "People signed a petition throughout this province in order to have a say, and now we're giving them that say," Terry Lake, the Liberal chair of the all-party committee, said Monday after the unanimous decision.

    “If 50 per cent of the people who show up at the polling booths next September say they want to get rid of an HST then certainly, as a government, I would want to get rid of the HST,” Campbell said a later interview with the Vancouver Sun.

    Vander Zalm upset

    The NDP had been urging the Liberals to send the matter to the legislature for a free vote, but voted in favour of the referendum in the end.

    New Democrat committee member Jenny Kwan said the party had little choice after its own motion calling for a legislature vote was defeated.

    Elections BC had verified about 557,000 signatures on the petition, in the anti-HST fight led by former premier Bill Vander Zalm.

    "I don't know why I came to this crazy place," said Vander Zalm after the hearing.

    "I am disgusted that there's all these people out there, they elect these people to represent them, and they sit there and talk against the wish and the will of the people. I just can't believe what I see happening."

    Vander Zalm and his supporters have promised to begin recall campaigns to have Liberal MLAs thrown out of their jobs.

    British Columbia's unique direct democracy laws allow voters to launch campaigns to recall politicians from office 18 months after the provincial election.

    Referendum options considered

    Earlier Monday, B.C.'s chief electoral officer, Craig James, told the committee an election-style referendum using ballot boxes in polling places would cost about $30 million.

    Internal documents released earlier this month revealed Liberal bureaucrats were contacting Ottawa about the HST prior to the May 2009 B.C. election where the Liberals were re-elected to their third consecutive term.

    Campbell and Finance Minister Colin Hansen said the bureaucrats were exploring the HST without government direction, but Vander Zalm and the Opposition New Democrats have accused the government of working behind the scenes on the HST while telling British Columbians the tax was off the government's radar.

    With files from the CBC's Jeff Davies and The Canadian Press

    Read more: CBC News - British Columbia - B.C. HST referendum to be binding


    Once people see real action, real outcome, they get involved.

    The referendum regarding the Alternative Vote is the issue. People know they want a bigger say, and they know that referendum, or DD is they way to go.

    AV only offers more political party choice. It does not give the voter (the teacher, the truck driver, the student, etc..) any bigger say than they had before.

    -The Peasant Philosopher

    And as a side note, those recall initiatives against the politicians... have already begun.

  3. #23

    Default WOW ACCOUNT-Using Your Voice To Wow Your Audience!

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  4. #24
    Trusted Member Little_Englander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Englander View Post
    Anthony Butcher posted;
    "As for Direct Democracy, as far as I am aware there isn't a single significant political party putting it forward as a priority suggestion. Until that happens, DD just isn't on the cards." Endquote

    The Constitution: UKIP policy
    Direct Democracy & Referenda
    UKIP would introduce ‘Direct Democracy’ whereby a fixed proportion of the electorate, depending on the nature of the constituency (and normally 5%), sign a petition demanding a referendum on any “qualifying issue” that concerns them, within a 6 month period for national petitions and three months for local petitions, shall be granted a referendum, and the results will be binding.
    The Constitution: UKIP Policy - UK Independence Party
    ***************
    On further reflection I now agree with AB regarding our parties and and their avoidance of direct democracy.

    What UKIP refer to as direct democracy is nothing of the sort. According to their published information, they will only grant us a referendum for a "qualifying issue". There is no explanation as to how or who judges an issue to be a "qualifying issue".

    The tri-partite elected dictatorship LibLabCon, and now it seems UKIP, reserve the right to decide whether we will be granted a referendum on any issue. This is indirect democracy. And we have seen how brown and Cameron declaimed 'The change, (EU matters) is not significant, so there is no need for a referendum. It's a matter for parliament'.

    Direct democracy is where the electorate themselves have the right to force a referendum, not have to rely on politicians to grant them one.

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  5. #25
    Trusted Member shagpile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peasant Philosopher View Post
    The greatest obstacle to political change has always been the apathy of the electorate.

    I agree with Millennium that a NO vote on the AV referendum would be a good start to introduce more democratic rule for the common man and woman. Although it is counter intuitive, a NO vote would show that the electorate would see that they (the voters), are only being offered electoral reform - and not any REAL democratic power.
    I will be voting in this referendum. I will be writing the word INDEPENDENCE on the ballot paper.

    It will be counted as a spoilt ballot.

    I hope they will be "spoilt for choice" in the count.

    Parliament for England and so on..... what ever "tickles your fancy".

    I'll seriously ask you this. What will you have accomplished by voting "YES"?

  6. #26
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    Default A "No" means know, a "yes" means more!

    Quote Originally Posted by shagpile View Post
    I will be voting in this referendum. I will be writing the word INDEPENDENCE on the ballot paper.

    It will be counted as a spoilt ballot.

    I hope they will be "spoilt for choice" in the count.

    Parliament for England and so on..... what ever "tickles your fancy".

    I'll seriously ask you this. What will you have accomplished by voting "YES"?

    In the world today, true meaning seems to be hidden by the use of alternative words, code words, misplaced expressions and outright misrepresentation of facts.

    Perhaps "Independence" would be the best reply. My only worry, is that it also might somehow be misinterpreted as well.

    -The Peasant Philosopher

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    the recent vote by the Commons to ignore the EU ruling on votes for prisoners was very uplifting. Lets just hope they stick to their guns in the face of a further EU directive to abide by it.

    After all, the French totally ignored the EU when they evicted the Gypsys and nothing happened to them, so why should we..

  8. #28
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    I gewt depressed just thinking about our loss of pride in our country, it was always a little weak, but since the EU penpushers have whittled and picked over the bones of our laws and ways the pride in all we do as a country is deminishing by the day. Since When are we responsable for the health care of all from across the channel. since we joined the EU. Since when was the laws of our parliment questioned. Since we joined the EU. Since when where we responsable for a majorcontribution to a joint pot to fund an army of faceless beaurocrats. Since we joined the EU. Since when where we told that the rights of folk who commit revolting crimes some unmentionable should have the right to vote. Since we joined the EU. I would like someone to tell me what we have gained. Other than a load of red tape of which we already had enough. we need to find our identity. the EU is a powerful overpriced overindulged body of beaurocrat's that are trying to put us all into a melting pot and make us all the same. Will it work. NEVER

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