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Thread: Article: Why Eurosceptics should support AV

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    Administrator Anthony Butcher's Avatar
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    Default Article: Why Eurosceptics should support AV

    Anthony Butcher - Parish Councillor for Long Ashton: http://anthonybutcher.com
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    Trusted Member Millennium3's Avatar
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    AV is marginally better than FPTP, however Direct Democracy would, almost certainly, take us out of the EU - along with giving the people much more of what they want rather than what this corrupt political class want.
    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." Thomas Paine

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    Administrator Anthony Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millennium3 View Post
    AV is marginally better than FPTP, however Direct Democracy would, almost certainly, take us out of the EU - along with giving the people much more of what they want rather than what this corrupt political class want.
    Unfortunately DD won't be on the ballot papers, but AV will!
    Anthony Butcher - Parish Councillor for Long Ashton: http://anthonybutcher.com
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    Trusted Member Millennium3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher View Post
    Unfortunately DD won't be on the ballot papers, but AV will!
    It can be at the next GE.
    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." Thomas Paine

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    Trusted Member Millennium3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millennium3 View Post
    It can be at the next GE.
    Just to add to this, should AV be voted in at the referendum, the chances of DD being considered by the electorate falls sharply. The view will be, certainly for the next GE and probably the following, that we have changed to AV - lets give that a chance first.

    I don't think anyone really believes that changing to AV will have the effect of taking us out of the EU although it might help the anti EU parties to improve their vote share, but DD would almost certainly take us out.
    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." Thomas Paine

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    Trusted Member rjt's Avatar
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    Tommorow night the Deputy Prime Minister along with many of his colleagues who enjoy all the trappings of ministerial office will vote in support of the Governments proposal to increase fees for students, this is in direct opposition to an election pledge signed by Lib Dem prospective MPS.

    In seperate posts on the issue of AV Anthony has correctly admited AV like other forms of electing our representatives does nothing to stop such abuses.

    As M3 rightly says AV does nothing to take us out of the EU only direct democracy can do that.

    Anthony has also said elsewhere under AV someone like myself could vote UKIP and then use my other preferences to help determine whether I get a Tory, Labour or Lib MP.

    This is all about democracy, why would anyone who wants out of the EU think a Tory, Labour or Lib MP is going to help.

    AV does nothing to correct the corroption in our Political system we could end up with a small number of independents proping up a discredited government after it has lost its authority i.e in Australia. Or permant Lib Dem presence in government, or even more disproportinate election results as suggested in the Jenkins commision.

    This does not give power back to the people, we should reject it and strike a fatal blow to this government which only has Brussels and not Britains intrests at heart.

    Direct Democracy is the way forward, anything else is a shoddy compromise whoch does nothing for this countrys future freedom.
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

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    Administrator Anthony Butcher's Avatar
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    rjt I really don't understand why you think that a NO vote would impact on the Government at all, given that the majority partner is the NO campaign. The Lib Dems have already achieved an agreement on PR for the House of Lords, and the Tories are going to get their boundary changes and reduction to 600 MPs. The referendum will not have any impact either way on their agreement.

    As for Direct Democracy, as far as I am aware there isn't a single significant political party putting it forward as a priority suggestion. Until that happens, DD just isn't on the cards.

    I have also, in this article, presented a case for how AV could indeed lead to Britain getting out of the EU - which would be impossible under FPTP. If BOO managed to get 600 Conservative candidates to agree to stand, and maybe some from the other parties, it would give the British public the chance to vote in 300+ anti-EU MPs while also not having to support a UKIP Government, which clearly the majority would never do. If nothing else, it could raise the profile of the issue and increase the pressure on the parties to review their position.

    It's a very theoretical and pie in the sky proposition, but in the world of ideas for getting out of the EU, it sits ahead of UKIP gaining power, the Tories switching to being anti-EU or DD being introduced. The only more likely scenario is a referendum agreement if we get another coalition Government in five years, or if the referendum campaign works its magic.

    At least if we can get a YES vote we give the public, and ourselves, the option in the future. Even if it only meant that high profile europhiles were challenged, that would be an achievement.

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    Trusted Member rjt's Avatar
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    Cracks in the coalition are already appearing and will be further strained by the Tution fees debacle, another Broken Lib Dem promise there

    Yes DD is not a policy promoted by Partys, although UKIP have discussed it in the past. So it will need growing public call for it to pressure parties to change policy

    As for the Lords Cameron was already in favour of an elected chamber

    I agree UKIP wont gain power on its own I have always argued that a political realignment will be needed to do this.

    AV does nothing for this as you have rightly said.

    Finally as regards BOO its fine in principle but if you are a Tory who has signed it you are still elected on a manefesto commited to out membership.

    Anything that issues a rebuff to this government is good, it is not a natural coalition it was founded on opptunism. Sooner it goes the better.
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Gen 1:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millennium3 View Post
    AV is marginally better than FPTP.
    That is basically it, and the reason I will probably be voting for AV.

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    Trusted Member rjt's Avatar
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    Well with respect I hope the yes campaign has a slightly more positive message than that and when as is likely AV produces and even more disprortionate result in a GE those saying yes now may well revise there views.
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Gen 1:1

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