Fun with bloggers who hate their County "England"

[Steve Uncles]

Boatang & Demetriou: The English Democrats Party: A little digging goes a long way

I do have fun, with these "self hating" bloggers.

The see the Cross of St George, and immediately begin to make all sorts of assumptions, they have been brain washed into this type of reaction.

England is the only Country in the world where display of the National Flag is percieve by certain (Haters) in society as being racist or biggoted - I find this so sad.

You may recall the "self hating" blogger - Chris Lightfoot, who in 2004, "went off on one" just because he got a leaflet through his letter box with an England Flag on it.

18 Months ago the poor lad Committed Suicide - that's what happens when you hate your own country, you have no identity, no focus - nothing.

So Bloggers, just take time to actually thing if your presumptions are logical, before you go off on one !

Do you believe the SNP (Scottich National Party ) are racist biggots ?

[margrete]

Steve, you mean their country, not their county, surely?

[Mr Rob]

The Cross of St George?

I thought John Demetriou had been objecting to a big brave bloke visiting his site, cutting and pasting something he had written, and posting it here for him and his mates to make snide comments about, without even giving Demetriou the opportunity to defend himself. If he hadn't tracked you back here, he wouldn't even know this was going on.

You seem to have an interesting relationship with the truth.

Come to think of it, also with good manners, open debate, courage and intelligence...I reserve the right to add to this list.

[Toque]

I do have fun, with these "self hating" bloggers.

The see the Cross of St George, and immediately begin to make all sorts of assumptions, they have been brain washed into this type of reaction.

Do you ever actually read (and comprehend) criticism that is leveled at you?

That anyone who doesn't support an English parliament is a self-hater is becoming close to being your default position. In which case, depending on which polls you take, anything between 30-80% of the population of England are self-haters.

And people who criticise the EDP are brainwashed and liberal self-haters, or brainwashed and liberal anglophobes.

Brainwashed by whom?

[Englander 1]

Toque what is your agenda...are you pleased with yourself? out of personal interest what party do you support?

[Toque]

Toque what is your agenda...are you pleased with yourself? out of personal interest what party do you support?

And here we have another EDP tactic, the questioning of motives. I have no ulterior motive and I am not working of the interests of another party, nor am I a member of another party, nor do I support any particular party. Since you ask, the last time I voted it was for the SNP against Nigel Griffiths. This time I'm unsure but it will probably be a tactical vote that will most damage Labour, and at the moment that's looking most like UKIP (because ethics won't allow me to vote for the EDP or BNP).

Tend to agree with Guido: Johnson and Miliband Ready Campaign Teams - Guy Fawkes' blog

Am I pleased with myself? In respect of my attitude towards Steve Uncles' involvement with the far-right? Yes, I am. Uncles is an idiot and he's dragging the name of English nationalism through the mud. You may not find my contribution particularly constructive but that's because it's not intended to be. I tried the constructive approach with the EDP years ago and it failed. Now I'm on a damage limitation exercise to ensure that there is a visible English nationalist voice that opposes what the EDP are doing.

You'll have to live with it I'm afraid. Or change. That's politics.

[Englander 1]

What are the EDP doing...you seem to have a strange agenda Toque...nothing personal but you are barking up the wrong tree and I should know. You are playing into the hands of Englands detractors is that your intention? Do you believe that the aims of the English Democrats are not correct...have you read our manifesto and constitution?

[SteveShark]

As much as it amuses me to see the English Nationalist cause crumbling before my very eyes, I feel a strange compassion and will now, generously, set you straight.
In essence, Mr Uncles, you have cut and pasted certain blog entries written by a Mr Demetriou with which and whom you disagree.
You have then discussed them amongst yourselves.
Had Mr Demetriou and Mr Rob not done a bit of 'digging' and found out what was going on then none of us outside this forum would have been any the wiser.
Don't you see the problem with this?
You're discussing opinions with which you disagree amongst yourselves.
If you really want to persuade people to your way of thinking then you have to 'get out there' and actually engage with those people - not discuss their views in some sort of 'vacuum' because, ultimately, that's just talking to yourself.
Is this really how political movements are born?
Mr Uncles has been issued with a challenge - when is he going to accept it?
Are his arguments and opinions strong enough to exist outside of this forum and has he got the necessary courage of his convictions to enable him to engage in debate on Mr Demetriou's blog?
Or, are his opinions and beliefs to weak to be discussed away from those who agree with him already?
Will Mr Uncles test his arguments and debating skills in the open and away from the safety of this forum?
Or will he continue to cower in his bunker?

[Toque]

You are playing into the hands of Englands detractors is that your intention?

You are playing into the hands of England's detractors. Is that your intention?

You agree with your course of action, I agree with mine, but it does not follow that I (or anyone else who disagrees with you) am either liberal, self-hating or anglophobic. From the beginning with English Democrats have failed to understand that English nationalism is not one single view, it is many, and it depends on your vision of England, your politics, your understanding of Britain, the United Kingdom and England's place in Europe and the wider world.

I actually think that a variety of opinion makes English nationalism a stronger force. I welcome 'liberal self-haters' and 'anglophobes' like Perryman and Kingsnorth to the English cause, which I see as my cause, their cause, your cause, England's cause. Same cause, but a different understanding of how it will be achieved and what the desired outcome is.

It may be that the English Democrat's strategy of 'converting' right-wingers to English nationalism will increase the pressure on the Westminster establishment to address the English Question, it may be that it makes them more reluctant. We simply don't know. However, there is no benefit to me from slavishly supporting the EDP's strategy, and no benefit to English nationalism. Conversely it may be that the case that liberal self haters and anglophobes on the left who argue the cause for England will strike a chord with the wider public and political establishment. We simply don't know. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and perhaps right-wing English nationalism and left-wing English nationalism will together have the desired effect on the nation's consciousness.

Does that mean I should align myself with Marxists or neo-Nazis or idiots in the hope of magnifying the power of their elbow? It seems that you think I should. You seem to think that I have to declare for a particular party or political view. Well, I don't have a political party and my 'agenda' is to promote the desire for English self-determination and expression (which is also my basic definition of nationalism). It's your view that I am damaging English nationalism, or fragmenting it. But that's because you fail to understand that English nationalism is not one single thing, and that it has many drivers; English nationalism is still a debate - a conversation - it is organic because it is still a 'mood not a movement' and has yet to coalesce around a particular view or organisation. You want that organisation to be the EDP (like Scotland has the SNP and Wales Plaid) but I don't see that the English Democrats are equivalent to the SNP or Plaid, and I don't think that you, as an organisation, have the vision or individuals of intellect to drive forward a positive idea of England that is capable of capturing the public mood to turn English nationalism into a movement. If all English nationalists slavishly followed idiots like Steven Uncles we would get nowhere, I can tell you that now. It is healthy for people like me, or Kingsnorth, to oppose him, because he is an idiot, because he has no political ethics, and because it is healthy for there to be an alternative English nationalism to what the EDP presently offer. Your nationalism is essentially grievance based, reactionary (see the English Lobby), aggressive, churlish (see this forum) and is unfortunately suspected of being a means to an end because of your willingness to associate with racists.

Until the English Democrats are able to tolerate dissent within the party and from outside it (I should know) without resorting to threats and pettiness I can never support you, even if you were deserving of my support in all other respects. As you know I received a letter from your former Vice Chairman threatening to sue me for writing that "the EDP will look like a bunch of quasi-fascists" if they adopt Steve Uncle's proposed policy of making it a legal requirement to display the English flag on all food produced in England. This was something I wrote in response to an invitation to assess potential EDP policies on another forum. Since that time I have taken a dim view of the EDP, and this has been magnified by the actions of Steve Uncles and the hopeless semi-literate drivel that he pollutes the internet with.

Take a look at this forum. Do you think this is a good shop window for the English Democrats or English nationalism. Frankly I think it's awful. It's worse than awful. It marks your party as stupid, hostile and petty for everyone that comes across it. And some of the things that your great leader reveals on here are immensely damaging to your party, and would be immensely damaging to English nationalism as a whole if English nationalists like me did not oppose it. Yet you continue to support Steve Uncles. Are you idiotic too?

The English Democrats will have me opposed to them for as long as this Uncles idiot has an official role in the party and is given a platform, and until such time that I receive an official public apology for the threat to sue me (which is what I demanded at the time and never received).

You, as a party, created me as your enemy by your actions. Don't be so precious now.

[SteveShark]

You are playing into the hands of England's detractors. Is that your intention?
You, as a party, created me as your enemy by your actions. Don't be so precious now.

Toque, as much as I disagree with your politics, I appreciate your reasoned arguments and cogent responses.
Like you, I fail to see how Mr Uncles can ever hope to acquire any sort of political presence whilst he presents himself and his party so badly.
It seems to me that the EDP is a bit of a 'Citizen Smith' operation - a few like-minded people sit in the back room of a pub and talk about what they're going to do and...er...that's it...
Oh well, at least it keeps them off the streets.