Lib Dem eurosceptics?

[Tom Wilde]

We all know that there have been individual LibDems - even one LibDem MP - who have been eurosceptics. Over the years, a significant number of LibDem councillors have defected to UKIP, presumably because they were bothered about the EU. But does anyone know if there is any actual organisation of LibDems promoting any degree of scepticism about the EU?

I'm asking now because the awful, and awfully predictable, disaster with the euro seems to have made an increasing number of people in the centre and centre left of British politics to reassess their views of the whole EU project. Even the Guardian seems far more eurosceptical than previously; passers-by now complain about the overwhelming smell of coffee drifting out of its office windows. If there isn't yet a eurosceptical pressure group within the LibDems then there probably will be soon!

[Tom Wilde]

Google hasn't found me any LibDem eurosceptical groups yet, but I found several stories suggesting that some senior LibDems are keen to develop a 'narrative' of liberal reform for the EU. In other words they want the party to present itself as less uncritically pro-EU (at least in some contexts - these days LibDems always think about who they are trying to fool before explaining party policy).

However, if some of them think this would be a good direction for the party to go, then the next thing you know, they'll have an informal group to press for it, and then before you can say Lloyd George that group will start to attract support from genuinely eurosceptical LibDems and then ... what then?

Here's a blog post from a LibDem supporter's blog. Also links to a highly relevant Guardian article from January.

http://liberalengland.blogspot.co.uk...n-liberal.html

[Tom Wilde]

The Lib Dem MP who is closest to being a eurosceptic is Nick Harvey (North Devon). He was the only Lib Dem MP to vote against the Maastricht Treaty.

[Millennium3]

We all know that there have been individual LibDems - even one LibDem MP - who have been eurosceptics. Over the years, a significant number of LibDem councillors have defected to UKIP, presumably because they were bothered about the EU. But does anyone know if there is any actual organisation of LibDems promoting any degree of scepticism about the EU?

I'm asking now because the awful, and awfully predictable, disaster with the euro seems to have made an increasing number of people in the centre and centre left of British politics to reassess their views of the whole EU project. Even the Guardian seems far more eurosceptical than previously; passers-by now complain about the overwhelming smell of coffee drifting out of its office windows. If there isn't yet a eurosceptical pressure group within the LibDems then there probably will be soon!

Prior to the last GE I joined the Lib/Dems so that I could help them locally, but mainly because the pre-election expectation was that they were going to include an In/Out referendum in their manifesto - after their ludicrous 'abstention' position at the Lisbon Treaty Referendum debate [this never materialised of course]. I had plenty of battles on their members forum over the EU whilst I was a member, with little or no support. The impression I was left with was that it was Shirley Williams who had defined the Party's position on Europe, she was, and probably still is, a hugely respected figure because of her previous experiences in government for the Labour Party.

Her position was 'at the heart of Europe - whatever the cost', she was ably supported by Clegg [this explains the 'abstention' position] whose true interest in politics seems to be the EU and the EU alone.

The Scottish MP's [ex Liberals David Steel, Ming Campbell etc] were also heavily in favour of our membership of the EU, primarily I think because they knew that with the UK at the centre of the EU, should Scotland want independence from the UK, it would be the EU who would adjudicate the issue [as they had with other break-ups] which would not be the case if we were outside. These together made the Party's position on the EU rock solid.

Since leaving the Party, I have kept an eye on developments through the Liberal Democrat Voice and was surprised see, today, an article attacking Clegg - even though a huge number of supporters have left the Party because of his total support of Cameron. Until now, LDV have maintained a continuing support of Clegg, usually, it appeared, through selectively reporting poll surveys. It does seem that a fundamental fracture is taking place within the Party and the developments towards political and monetary union within the eurozone has helped to apply this pressure.

http://www.libdemvoice.org/peter-kel...der-29048.html

Most Lib/Dems leaving the Party have joined Labour - however, this was an interesting variant.

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/sdp/...ouncillor.html

A small group have kept the SDP going [as a anti EU Party] and given David Owen's recent declaration:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-Europe.html

his leadership, or of another left of centre party, would be filling a gaping hole in the options available to voters. No matter how well UKIP do, following the next GE, Labour, supported by the L/Ds will be in a position to take us into the eurozone, through the referendum Mandelson has been suggesting. If the kind of fear that has been developed in Greece can be repeated here within a pretty ignorant electorate - we could find ourselves as paid up members of a eurozone within a US of Europe with a single referendum!

Anti EU sentiment has been almost totally confined to the right. The squabbling parties and the in fighting has distracted attention away from the fact that, the absence of a left of centre anti EU party, has left the field clear, for probably Labour alone, to make all of the right's efforts completely meaningless.

[Tom Wilde]

Anti EU sentiment has been almost totally confined to the right. The squabbling parties and the in fighting has distracted attention away from the fact that, the absence of a left of centre anti EU party, has left the field clear, for probably Labour alone, to make all of the right's efforts completely meaningless.

I disagree that anti-EU sentiment has been confined to the right. There has certainly been plenty of it in the Labour Party. After all, it was official Labour policy under Michael Foot to withdraw Britain from the EU. Even after Kinnock (later a European Commissioner) reversed that policy, a few leading Labour politicians such as Tony Benn and Peter Shore continued to oppose the EU. And even today the Labour Euro Safeguards Committee keeps up the good fight:

http://www.lesc.org.uk/

So there have been plenty of EU opponents on the left, especially (but not only) in the 1970s and 80s - but where are the EU opponents in the liberal centre of British politics?

[MAZZINI]

Very perceptive Millennium. Whilst there are groups that are not right-wing such as http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/99937774260/ or http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Nat...60937907279184 by and large most Euroceptic parties are. This is ironic since it was the left (and liberals) from the French Revolution onwards that supported nation states whilst it was the right that supported empires and unions. Time to redress the balance?

[Tom Wilde]

Here is the website of another left-of-centre group, the Campaign Against Euro-Federalism (CAEF), which describes itself as being "oriented to the labour and trade union movement".

http://www.caef.org.uk/index.html

By the way, it is a fascinating website with a vast amount of good material on it.

I suppose this should be in the Labour Party section of the forum, really - but are there no corresponding organisations aligned with the LibDems?

[Millennium3]

Here is the website of another left-of-centre group, the Campaign Against Euro-Federalism (CAEF), which describes itself as being "oriented to the labour and trade union movement".

http://www.caef.org.uk/index.html

By the way, it is a fascinating website with a vast amount of good material on it.

I suppose this should be in the Labour Party section of the forum, really - but are there no corresponding organisations aligned with the LibDems?

I think the Labour MPs and members are far less likely to defy their leadership than the Tories, Frank Field, the most defiant of Labour MPs has to resort to posting his thoughts in the Liverpool local press. If you recall the vote last October on a EU Referendum:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...MPs-voted.html

Just 19 Labour MPs voted for whereas 79 Conservatives defied their leadership - one having to give up their ministerial post to do so.

It was this vote that caused me to join the Labour Party for 6 months to try to understand why there were so few rebels. Through their members forum Membersnet - which is barely used, I got the very distinct impression that Labour members do believe what their leaders tell them. The EU is portrayed as a socialist organisation. There was one poster who repeated what a Labour MEP had told him - that everyone [might have every family] was £6000 pa better off because we were in the EU. He was very put out when I challenged him and asked for a link.

It was this experience that made me realise that if Labour do win the next GE [as expected] - they are very likely to hold a referendum on whether we should join what is a developing US of E, along withe the euro. The timing would have to be right [after the EU economy has been revived], but there certainly would be little opposition from within the Party. My concern was increased after seeing this article from Mandelson:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...erendum-labour

This realisation lead me to starting this thread.

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/euro...in-decade.html

[Traditionalist]

On original EEC membership most the Labour MP's voted against as did the Tory far right.
Also the SNP and Plaid voted against.
Every liberal voted for it.
How things have changed.

[Baron von Lotsov]

We all know that there have been individual LibDems - even one LibDem MP - who have been eurosceptics. Over the years, a significant number of LibDem councillors have defected to UKIP, presumably because they were bothered about the EU. But does anyone know if there is any actual organisation of LibDems promoting any degree of scepticism about the EU?

I'm asking now because the awful, and awfully predictable, disaster with the euro seems to have made an increasing number of people in the centre and centre left of British politics to reassess their views of the whole EU project. Even the Guardian seems far more eurosceptical than previously; passers-by now complain about the overwhelming smell of coffee drifting out of its office windows. If there isn't yet a eurosceptical pressure group within the LibDems then there probably will be soon!

The Lib Dem supporters are class A assholes. You just have to accept in this life that not everyone has sense, and the Lib Dems cater especially for those that lack it. If they were sensible enough to see the reality of the EU then they would be sensible enough to see all Lib Dem policies are bad and they would be out of it in five minutes. OK so we haven’t had the Lib Dems in power before, so it has until now been slightly trickier to see how stupid their policies actually are. For example, homosexual ‘marriage’ [sic] has to be a classic one of theirs. The good news is the number of total nutters in Britain is quite small. It’s currently stands at about one in ten. 25% of the party members have left as well.