Why do immigrants pretend to be English?

[flamingreen]

Heard some of the white youth today? Most English people can't even speak English properly these days either!

There is a world of difference between supposedly not speaking your mother tongue 'properly' and not havigna mastery of a foriegn language, a world of difference.

The kind of errors a foreigner makes speaking a language are quite different to those made by mother tongue speakers, the latter being simply those features of grammar which within the milieu the speaker moves are in fact a 'standard' form of English and perfectly well understood by everyone around them, even if they do not conform to the accent/dialect of speech accepted by the middle classes.

These attitudes towards working class speech have always been (snobbishly) effected by the middle and upper classes, even towards what are now seen as rather charming (though not so charming that they are consciously emulated) traditional dialects such as Cockney, Geordie, or Scouse. Nowadays the snobbish remarks of the above poster tend to be reserved for those who speak teh evolved unattractive dialect influenced by whatever is the local dialect stirred in with Cockney (due to TV and internal migration) and Caribbean English (also due to TV influences and migration).

Ugly and unbgrammatic as it seems however it is not a variety of English, and not a barrier to the understanding if formal English whicha poor knowledge of our language is in an immigrant for whom English isnt a mother tongue.

[longbord]

Very well said, FG.

However, the really worrying thing for those countries whose languages are under threat... and for us... is that developing competence in language results, ultimately, in that person "thinking" in that language.

I love the English language and regard it as one of the most flexible forms of human self expression... but I do not presume that ALL thoughts... and the WAY in which those thoughts are framed... will ALL find their best expression in the English language.

What will humanity have denied itself when everyone thinks in English... or Mandarin...???

Consider that German was the language of Kant... and others... though it should be sufficient to simply recall that Immanuel Kant framed his thought in German.

[Mr Rob]

Tommy is right - no doubt he has had more recent and regular exposure to the growing number of native Britons who can no longer express themselves in their own language.

It is not a question of regional accent or ways of speech, it is a genuine inability to communicate.

Accusations of snobbery have long been used by the socialist intelligensia to criticise those who have noticed this decline, and thus it has continued until employers and universities alike are being forced to run remedial lessons....

How ironic that here we find others doing exactly the same thing as the establishment figures, and betraying our working class youth in the name of their own idea of "diversity"!

[flamingreen]

NO you are wrong Mr Rob. Working class speech has ALWAYS been labelle das inadequate *bad* English, and yet some workign class dialects used to be among the richest and most colourful and creative forms of expression any society has ever created - old Cockney for example with its magnificent rhyming slang backslang similes and metaphors.

The young sadly have lost much of the colour from their language, as communities have been broken by migration and the forces of capitalism and many of the old forms of expression have not been passed on from one genration to the next. However this does not mean that they cannot communicate effectively within their milieu or that they fail to comprehend the standard form of the language as foriegners , even those who may speak failry well, almost always do (and I am not speaking of foriegn speakers of English only, but every foreign speaker of a language struggles to understand at times, especially when the second language is spoken with an accent).

This is why foriegners often provide such very bad service and are a danger in many jobs because they simply misunderstand what is said, and almost never admit it! I often listen to people speaking to foreigners and I know the foriegner just isnt getting it, and the British person is talkign away, thinking theyre being understood, and the foriegners never say, sorry I dont understand, because they dont want anyone to know it!

[Mr Rob]

Then I'll tell the universities and employers that their worries are unjustified, and all is well..............

"communicate effectively within their milieu" - what condescending tripe you come out with.

[flamingreen]

Then I'll tell the universities and employers that their worries are unjustified, and all is well..............

"communicate effectively within their milieu" - what condescending tripe you come out with.

I suggest the reasons universities are having 'issues' is that they are now taking students from far far lower down the ability range than they used to, due to the higher proportion of young people going to uni. In the past they could pick from the creme de la creme, whereas now, all but the top unis have to take those of very average ability, and of course the style of education has changed with less emphasis on the 3Rs and more political brainwashing and fun activities.

This applies to employers to to a certain extent. In the past many very bright young people did not set their sights on university and were available to employers from the age of sixteen or eighteen, whereas now those available at that age are the *dregs* who cannot make it to uni; and do not negect the fact that it suits employers to slag off our own young since it provides them with an excuse to import foreigners who are often cheaper, more flexible, more willing to be pushed around, and whose epresence in simply adding to the pool of labour helps to hold wage demands down - employers love mass immigration and the bucking of the local market, in their favour, that it creates.

[Mr Rob]

And all the time you think up reasons why the standards of our young working class are not really falling, the more they fall, and the less opportunity exists for them, and the less social mobility there is in the country.

Result: we end up with a self-perpetuating but largely talentless privileged elite, you can keep blaming the "foreigners", and our own working class lads and lasses can be left to "communicate effectively within their own milieu".

Great.

[flamingreen]

And all the time you think up reasons why the standards of our young working class are not really falling, the more they fall, and the less opportunity exists for them, and the less social mobility there is in the country.

There is no evidence of their falling; its entirley anecdotal. In fact more are getting qualifications than ever before. The problem is that there simply arent the oppotunities for them .Social mobility is limited because the number of *good* jobs is limited and allowing employers an unlimited supply of workers to pick from limits the opportunities for upward mobility still further.

Because there has been a high degree of social mobility in the past as the number of *middle class* jobs increased does not mean this state of affairs can continue indefinitely. Everyone cannot rise. Allowing in foriegners to take the lower level jobs consigns many of our own citizens to unemployment (including many of our British BME youth), and allowing in foriegners who are skilled reduces the opportunities for our own educated people too, and takes the pressure off Government and emplyers to train our own educated people to fill the roles which require specialist skills that are still in short supply.

Mass immigration makes every problem worse and destroys our own young peoples futures.

[CB100]

I think you are conflating the numbers obtaining "qualifications" with genuine educational attainment.

If you set an exam and progressively lower the pass mark from say 50% to 2%, you would undoubtedly get more people with "qualifications". Quite what such "qualifications" would be worth is another matter entirely.

The evidence of standards falling is in the international league tables.

There is no evidence of their falling; its entirley anecdotal. In fact more are getting qualifications than ever before.

[flamingreen]

I think you are conflating the numbers obtaining "qualifications" with genuine educational attainment.

If you set an exam and progressively lower the pass mark from say 50% to 2%, you would undoubtedly get more people with "qualifications". Quite what such "qualifications" would be worth is another matter entirely.

The evidence of standards falling is in the international league tables.

Of course you are right, and dumbing down does happen. However this leads to confusion and means we dont really know if standards are falling or not. How do they even compare standards internationally for these 'league tables'? Its very hard to get a truly comparitive picture.