If Neather wasn't "high up enough to necessarily know", why parrot those who think he has spilled the beans?Originally Posted by flamingreen
I suspect "foreign immigrants" tend to vote with their peers on the economic/social ranking – blue collar for Labour, and middle level and higher professional for Liberal, Green and Tory. The trend is for fewer among the young and the less well off to vote anyway.
As I posted "some here...." and your response proves my point. To reply "people in the know or connected to them" is a vague hearsay phrase, and an attempt to manufacture some credence to what is no more than a third party assertion. Hardly a weighty rebuttal to a piece penned by the person in question.
If you maintain Neather was nobbled, who by? When? Why? How? Politicians get through more speechwriters than Eric Pickles has hot dinners! Andrew Neather probably finds himself a more marketable commodity now than before he wrote his original piece.
Good points.
There are a number of posters on this forum (presumably with big chips on their shoulders and presumably either on low pay or unemployed), who think the only possible reason immigration occurs in the UK is because the "powers that be" want to suppress the masses of British workers.
My own view is they should spend their time on further education instead of wasting it pushing their conspiracy theories. They might then actually get a chance to do something about their situation rather than going around in ever decreasing circles.
Migrants come here because the bosses dont want to pay decent wages. Its a race to the bottom. If there was a decent wage for all there would be no incentive to hire migrant labour. We also need to help fight for decent wages and conditions in countries where migrants are leaving. That would solve the problem
How do you plan on doing that?
Simplistic.
If there was a 'decent wage for all' the incentive for immigrants to come would be even stronger!
Bosses would not be allowed to discriminate against them under present laws! There are other ways than simply lower wages that bosses can get more work for less money from immigrants, so many would continuie to favour them, or maybe even employ more casual black market workers.
The immigrants can work like demons simply doing more work in the same time. I have seen a couple of Poles pulling this trick in local shops, always rushing around doing everything at top speed - they're not all like that though. One at my local Aldi was ridiculous, scanning at the speed of light, even when there was nobody in the queue - really annoying when youre a customer trying to pack too.
The immigrants can make themselves more flexible, working overtime whenever requested, being willing to take on work which they are not supposed to do (say for example a bar tender who agrees to clean the toilets), or being prepare d to ignore health and safety rules, common in the building trade
Immigrants can save the employer money by takign employer provided accomodation which is more expensive than the market rate, thus the employer effectively patys them less. Employers, especially the bad ones, have plenty fo other ruses to keep. wages down too.
Last edited by flamingreen; 07-02-2012 at 11:23 PM.
"The whole point of the liberal revolution that gave rise to the 1960’s was to free us from somebody else’s dogma, but now the same people…are striving to impose on others a secularized religion…" Richard Bernstein
You aren't exactly selling the British worker. All employers want flexibility and a willingness to work hard from their employees.
Undoubtedly there are bad employers who will break the law either by getting employees to break health and safety rules or pay below minimum wage. For the majority of employers, however, who operate within the law, immigrants are regarded as having a better attitude to work and a greater willingness to be flexible.The immigrants can make themselves more flexible, working overtime whenever requested, being willing to take on work which they are not supposed to do (say for example a bar tender who agrees to clean the toilets), or being prepare d to ignore health and safety rules, common in the building trade
For any unskilled British worker, if they aren't prepared to work as hard and be as flexible, it's not surprising that employers will chose immigrant workers instead of them.
From personal experience I don’t know anyone who couldn’t get a job if and when they really try.
The wave of immigration happened during times of economic growth, 10 years ago there were labour shortages almost everywhere, the increased labour force helped companies fill the gaps and expand, now that growth has been halted by the credit crunch and a £ which is worth peanuts (increasing living costs), not because they do or don’t have a workforce regardless of the ethnic makeup, the companies are going bankrupt and they receive no financial assistance.
How can you expect there to be jobs if so many companies are declaring bankruptcy? Supergiants like Asda have ensured money is taken out of local economies further increasing the gaps between rich and poor.
Standards of living have dropped because of the economic crisis and has put pressure on everyone, and blaming immigration is just pointing fingers, there’s a bigger picture here, the issue isn’t no jobs, the issue is ridiculous living and running costs which has led to no jobs.
Not everyone on the unemployment figures is actively looking for work, most of them are probably fraudsters, self employed and ….
Unemployment = 2.7 million
Drug Addicts = 2.8 million
Number of illegal drug users falls, survey shows | Society | guardian.co.uk
http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/public...gland_2010.pdf
How many of those addicts do you think are actively seeking work or capable of working?
Nearly 200,000 people are in structured treatment for class A drug abuse, and a further estimated 300,000 class A users in need of treatment. Only 10% get through a programme successfully. And only 1-2% represent non working age.
On average these users consume 50-200ml of methadone daily, with average prices £1 per ml, that’s average of £120 daily * 365 days * 200,000 =
£8,760,000,000 (£8.7bn) cost to tax payer for class A users
(Note: the NHS has to pay private pharmacies for the drug)
Couple that with crime figures (at least 50,000 class A users are persistent offenders), plus cost of other benefits, hospital treatments, these clowns are costing the government at least £15-30 billion annually not to mention how much money is being pumped into the black market.
What about alcoholics, thats a whole 'nother issue.
These problems have sky rocketed In recent years, and seriously impacted the quality of the British work force. Blaming migration is honestly just plain stupid - theres a thousand and one other problems what have contributed to this problem, and you guys (anti immigration types) address none of them.
25% of the British population have admitted trying Class A drugs…..
Yes of course employers want maximum work for the least pay, which is why trade unions have fought for decades, for decent conditons and adequate breaks and so on. People should only be expoected to work at a comfortable pace, not like demons, they should be able to chat to colleagues (in moderation) and they shouldnt be expected to do unpleasant jobs which they werent employed to do, or extra jobs over and above what they are paid for! Despertae foreigners from poorer countries, who feel as if their UK wages are massive, (which they are compared to what they are used to), are naturally desperate to impress, and some dont get the balance right and are prepared to undermine their British colleagues by giving the employer more than he deserves for the pay!
Most meet the letter of the law, yes, but its the spirit of cretaing a happy working environment where people are not expected to do unreasonable work (in terms of quantity, or quality) for low pay that I am talkign about.Undoubtedly there are bad employers who will break the law either by getting employees to break health and safety rules or pay below minimum wage. For the majority of employers, however, who operate within the law, immigrants are regarded as having a better attitude to work and a greater willingness to be flexible.
The 'better' attitude is entirely from an employers veiwpoint i.e. overworkign, more willing to be pushed around, more willign to do overtime when it suits the employer! British workers shouldnt be forced to compete with that. Surely you can see that its a backward step to have people who are used to, and accepting of, Third World standards (or even easterm European standards) undermining the the norms of the British workplace?
Which is why employers should not be allowed to trawl the world for cheap compliant labour! It completely undermines all that we have acheived over the last two centuries, making Britain a civilised society, improving the workplace and the conditions of workers, and rebalancing a situation where once the employer held all the cards.For any unskilled British worker, if they aren't prepared to work as hard and be as flexible, it's not surprising that employers will chose immigrant workers instead of them.
Legislation can only do so much to preserve that, an excess of workers to jobs (caused by immigration)represents a transfer of power away from the workers, an unfair transfer, since we ALL pay the price of employers being allowed to import cheaper workers, while only the employer gains.
Last edited by flamingreen; 08-02-2012 at 11:42 AM.
"The whole point of the liberal revolution that gave rise to the 1960’s was to free us from somebody else’s dogma, but now the same people…are striving to impose on others a secularized religion…" Richard Bernstein
If migrants do work that is legal it can't be that bad. The problem is that some low skilled aren't prepared to work like migrants. If someone has few skills, then hard work is the only thing of value they have to offer.
Migrants are made the same as Brits. If migrants are willing to do work that meets UK legal standards, it can't be as bad as you are suggesting. The migrants get their heads down and do the job. Brits could do the same but they chose not to and remain unemployed.Most meet the letter of the law, yes, but its the spirit of cretaing a happy working environment where people are not expected to do unreasonable work (in terms of quantity, or quality) for low pay that I am talkign about. The 'better' attitude is entirely from an employers veiwpoint i.e. overworkign, more willing to be pushed around, more willign to do overtime when it suits the employer!
I am not suggesting we accept third world standards. I am talking about employers who fully comply with UK law. If they do that and British workers aren't prepared to do what an employer requires, then the immigrant gets the job. It's obvious really.British workers shouldnt be forced to compete with that. Surely you can see that its a backward step to have people who are used to, and accepting of, Third World standards (or even easterm European standards) undermining the the norms of the British workplace?
Yes, I accept the ideal. At my firm everyone is well looked after and on very good rates of pay. Even my PA earns almost £30,000 a year. So I fully accept what you are saying but there is no way you can legislate for that. If an employer doesn't see the value there is nothing to be done.Which is why employers should not be allowed to trawl the world for cheap compliant labour! It completely undermines all that we have acheived over the last two centuries, making Britain a civilised society, improving the workplace and the conditions of workers, and rebalancing a situation where once the employer held all the cards.
I agree with you and I have said so previously. But whilst we remain in the EU that situation is not going to change. Meantime, Brits are competing for jobs in a difficult economic environment with stiff competition from hard working migrants.Legislation can only do so much to preserve that, an excess of workers to jobs (caused by immigration)represents a transfer of power away from the workers, an unfair transfer, since we ALL pay the price of employers being allowed to import cheaper workers, while only the employer gains.
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