Cameron has done it! He’s used the veto

[Baron von Lotsov]

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

What I am saying is dumb or not, the electorate should be given the right to make the decisions. If the electorate make the wrong choices for whatever reason (including being poorly educated) tough. We just have to accept it.

Much better than blaming politicians for getting it wrong.

Yes but we have enough stupid things at the moment, so I personally could do without more of them. Besides, I chat to quite a few Tory politicians and let them know what I think. Odd as it may seem to some, they do tend to listen. In my opinion we should just have a natural situation where the best ideas are most influential and the nutty ones least so. I try and give the Tories good ideas. That's the currency I trade in. We need competition in ideas, not a Marxist people's republic.

I mean when the local councillors try and have public meetings sometimes, but about the most important thing on their minds is the dog poo on the pavements. Actually I was in my high street yesterday because this American Tea Party movement were running an anti-capitalist stall, and I had a long chat to them about capitalism along with a random member of the public and virtually everything they said was wrong. So people are thick, and our education system just makes them thicker. Membership of the EU is not even featured in their list of priorities. They would tell you that they would like to be richer and would like more jobs, but few would make the connection between those goals and getting out of the EU. They just don’t understand what is going on, but they see the dog poo on the pavement and understand it does bad things if they tread in it. Few are cut out to be capable of understanding economics. Not even the teachers at these schools understand it. Some can’t even do arithmetic that I learnt at school when I was 12 years old. Just out of curiosity, how many Irish, as a percentage, do you think actually read the Lisbon Treaty before voting on it?

[CB100]

The Irish used to do very well out of the EU subsidies and not surprisingly they were pro EU and would support almost anything that was dreamt up. However, nowadays they have found that the King wasn't wearing any clothes, so they are rather less enthusisatic...

Just out of curiosity, how many Irish, as a percentage, do you think actually read the Lisbon Treaty before voting on it?

[Marilyn]

What about a transition to the E.E.A. instead ? .. joining Norway, Liechenstein and Iceland. A half-way house, instead of a full exit from the EU, and which would save a great deal of money and get back a lot of autonomy. Thereafter, exit from that if it doesn't work out. Also, I doubt the EU would tolerate another outside-EU arrangement such as the bi-lateral agreements Switz. has negotiated uniquely for itself.

[Baron von Lotsov]

The Irish used to do very well out of the EU subsidies and not surprisingly they were pro EU and would support almost anything that was dreamt up. However, nowadays they have found that the King wasn't wearing any clothes, so they are rather less enthusisatic...

Indeed, so that just goes to show what the collective intelligence of a nation results in. This is why our political debate has become so crude. In Cambodia they had a kind of people's republic, and the motives were good, but the leader Polpot was just very stupid. What happened was the people around him, like the generals and other officials, took advantage of his stupidity. It sort of set up a system where the more corrupt someone was the more power they elicited. This is why weak leadership is dangerous. I think this is what often happens with the Labour Party as well, because being in support of the working class they have ex-postmen as ministers, and although they may intend to do the right thing, they have to rely on advisors. Much of the problem with Labour and the EU according to certain sources close to them was not that they backed the EU, rather they were too powerless to prevent them walking all over them, and this caused a lot of frustration. So these are examples of the law of unintended consequences. What looks good superficially might end up as the complete opposite.

[Niall Warry]

Indeed, so that just goes to show what the collective intelligence of a nation results in. This is why our political debate has become so crude. In Cambodia they had a kind of people's republic, and the motives were good, but the leader Polpot was just very stupid. What happened was the people around him, like the generals and other officials, took advantage of his stupidity. It sort of set up a system where the more corrupt someone was the more power they elicited. This is why weak leadership is dangerous. I think this is what often happens with the Labour Party as well, because being in support of the working class they have ex-postmen as ministers, and although they may intend to do the right thing, they have to rely on advisors. Much of the problem with Labour and the EU according to certain sources close to them was not that they backed the EU, rather they were too powerless to prevent them walking all over them, and this caused a lot of frustration. So these are examples of the law of unintended consequences. What looks good superficially might end up as the complete opposite.

You end above with - "What looks good superficially might end up as the complete opposite"

Absolutely just like Cameron's spin about vetoing a treaty that never was!

Caught out Baron with your own stupidity and waffle!!

You strike me increasing as a man ( I assume you are one?!) with few convictions who changes positions with the wind and likes the sound of his own pontifications!!

[Baron von Lotsov]

You end above with - "What looks good superficially might end up as the complete opposite"

Absolutely just like Cameron's spin about vetoing a treaty that never was!

Caught out Baron with your own stupidity and waffle!!

You strike me increasing as a man ( I assume you are one?!) with few convictions who changes positions with the wind and likes the sound of his own pontifications!!

Now they want 30bn euros off us but the Conservatives are refusing. You know what Labour would have done though.

[CB100]

Well done to David Cameron! The best prime minister we have had for many,many years.

Now they want 30bn euros off us but the Conservatives are refusing. You know what Labour would have done though.

[gimlet]

Well done to David Cameron! The best prime minister we have had for many,many years.

It will be paid via the IMF - Cameron, an anti British PM, in the same mold as Heath.

[CB100]

Any money contributed via the IMF is much more secure because all other lenders including the ECB take any losses before the IMF. Fundamental difference.

It will be paid via the IMF - Cameron, an anti British PM, in the same mold as Heath.

[Niall Warry]

Now they want 30bn euros off us but the Conservatives are refusing. You know what Labour would have done though.

Baron this is all spin and froth from Cameron aided and abetted by the Main Stream Media.

You are far too easily taken in Baron - you need to wise up!