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Thread: Cameron has done it! He’s used the veto

  1. #21
    Trusted Member Little_Englander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Lotsov View Post
    I have always said a referendum is a bad idea. We have a parliamentary democracy, so the referendum will be the next election. This is the best system, and the reason it is the best is because holding referendums all the time has the unintended consequence that it puts the politicians in constant election mode. When they spend all their time campaigning then they don't have any time for doing the job they had been elected to do.

    Furthermore it becomes a kind of populist government, and that is an extremely bad thing. You saw the case of Emma West. The popular demand was that she should be shot. Now say anyone could call a referendum at any time with enough votes. We would have the worst laws you could possibly imagine. Take the case Sarah Payne and the subsequent law, known as Sarah’s law, if you want a real life example of how bad laws can be. It turns into a kind of mob rule, or to use another name for it, what you are talking of is Marxism, and this is where you have the People’s Republic of wherever. It was demonstrated that Marxism was particularly bad in the time of Stalin. Stalin rose to power much like Hitler did. These dictators us the basest emotions of the human psyche to rouse up the crowds and get a kind of fake democratic legitimacy.

    Now in the case of a referendum on EU matters it makes the job of the government a far more difficult one. The government knows it has to deliver or it won’t win the next election. It knows it has to deal with the EU and the EU is a serious threat. What we are involved with here is a complex diplomatic game of fast-moving chess. It is well above the minds of the dumbed down electorate. We have to play this game with the utmost stealth because when have some pretty sharp opponents. That means the public won’t get a say on every move, and indeed moves have to be made on the spot often and with a degree of secrecy as well. All we should be concerned about is that Cameron is going to play the game to the best of his ability and deliver for our country. This looks likely now. Cameron wants to get control of our borders back in his next move. If he achieves this then he is home and dry. OK there are a lot of other powers we want back, but control of our borders is a huge one. If he can at least get that under his belt by the time of the next election then people will know he means business. So far so good. I would expect that if all else fails there is a good chance the government will get us out in the end. Opinion polls are good enough to gauge what the public wants and his veto scored over 70% approval for those who knew whether it was good or bad, but then a large number didn't know, which tends to strengthen the above argument. Only 19% were actually against it.
    There are so many democratic flaws and suppositions in that post defending the withholding of democracy that I'm not going to waste my time in detailed engagement with it. Suffice it to say, if the dumbed down electorate are deemed aware enough to cast a vote in GEs, then they are also aware enough to vote in referenda.

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    A vote for the tri-partite elected dictatorship, the LibLabCon, the self authorised troika, is a vote for the EU.

  2. #22
    Trusted Member Baron von Lotsov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Englander View Post
    There are so many democratic flaws and suppositions in that post defending the withholding of democracy that I'm not going to waste my time in detailed engagement with it. Suffice it to say, if the dumbed down electorate are deemed aware enough to cast a vote in GEs, then they are also aware enough to vote in referenda.

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    A vote for the tri-partite elected dictatorship, the LibLabCon, the self authorised troika, is a vote for the EU.
    Oh really. Perhaps the reason you are not going to respond to the post is because you can't. I recall you saying a similar thing the last time I commented on your ideas. Regarding the abilities of the electorate, it is much easier to judge results, such as how large your pay packet is after five years of Tory rule than it is to decide on the best tactics to be used in the sophistication of international diplomacy. Even then the electorate don’t tend to get it right very often. When Gordon Brown was screwing our economy and nationalising banks his ratings went up.
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  3. #23
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    Personally I support more genuine democracy ie more involvement of the electorate in the big decisions. At least then, the electorate would be forced to accept the outcome of their decisions, good or bad, instead of blaming politicians for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Lotsov View Post
    Oh really. Perhaps the reason you are not going to respond to the post is because you can't. I recall you saying a similar thing the last time I commented on your ideas. Regarding the abilities of the electorate, it is much easier to judge results, such as how large your pay packet is after five years of Tory rule than it is to decide on the best tactics to be used in the sophistication of international diplomacy. Even then the electorate don’t tend to get it right very often. When Gordon Brown was screwing our economy and nationalising banks his ratings went up.

  4. #24
    Trusted Member Road_Hog's Avatar
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    Just to reiterate, in case anyone isn't clear on this. There was no treaty, and therefore there was no veto. Cameron lied and it's going to come back and bite him on the @rse. He's also kept very quiet about agreeing to the Tobin tax.

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    Trusted Member Little_Englander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road_Hog View Post
    Just to reiterate, in case anyone isn't clear on this. There was no treaty, and therefore there was no veto. Cameron lied and it's going to come back and bite him on the @rse. He's also kept very quiet about agreeing to the Tobin tax.
    Exactly right!

    And it's worth remembering that in GEs we vote for what are possibly the most duplicitous characters on the planet, like Cameron and his ilk. And when deciding their vote, people sometimes judge politicians by their appearance on TV rather than their policies, which indicates the weakness of voting for so called 'representatives' rather than on particular policies. However, to stereotype the electorate by reference to the naive, and their cousins the floating voters, is as bad as all other stereotyping.

    In GEs we vote for people: In referenda we vote for issues.

    That's why I can't really be bothered with the superior political classes, (and their sycophants), who strain every aspect of democratic illogic to withhold any executive influence from the 'dumb electorate'. Such characters are beneath my considered attention. The reality is that UK politicians get corrupted by UK politics, and far from being superior to the electorate they are often among the worst examples of humanity.

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    I think you can reiterate as much as you wish. The BBC, other media, UK policians, French politicians, German politicians etc etc - all say it was a "veto". Not literally of course but that was the effect on the proposed EU wide treaty.

    We are focussing on the effect not semantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Road_Hog View Post
    Just to reiterate, in case anyone isn't clear on this. There was no treaty, and therefore there was no veto. Cameron lied and it's going to come back and bite him on the @rse. He's also kept very quiet about agreeing to the Tobin tax.

  7. #27
    Trusted Member Road_Hog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB100 View Post
    I think you can reiterate as much as you wish. The BBC, other media, UK policians, French politicians, German politicians etc etc - all say it was a "veto". Not literally of course but that was the effect on the proposed EU wide treaty.

    We are focussing on the effect not semantics.
    So, you agree that there was no veto?

    Good, that point is clear. Next, what was the proposed treaty?

    You won't find a proposed treaty, much like the proposed veto. So, if there was no veto and no treaty, what exactly did happen?

    I'll tell you, bread and circuses.

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    [QUOTE=Road_Hog;1292191]So, you agree that there was no veto?

    No veto but "effectively vetoed" is the way Gavin Hewitt BBC Europe editor explains it.

    "PM David Cameron has effectively vetoed an EU-wide treaty change to tackle the
    eurozone crisis, saying it was not in the UK's interests."

    BBC News - David Cameron blocks EU-wide deal to tackle euro crisis

    [This was from my earlier posting to you (number 4) on the topic.]

    Good, that point is clear. Next, what was the proposed treaty?
    I suggest you read Gavin Hewitt's article (see link above) to learn about this in more detail.

    You won't find a proposed treaty, much like the proposed veto. So, if there was no veto and no treaty, what exactly did happen?I'll tell you, bread and circuses.
    As I say, maybe do a bit of reading...

  9. #29
    Trusted Member Road_Hog's Avatar
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    [quote=cb100;1292195]
    Quote Originally Posted by road_hog View Post
    so, you agree that there was no veto?

    No veto but "effectively vetoed" is the way gavin hewitt bbc europe editor explains it.

    "pm david cameron has effectively vetoed an eu-wide treaty change to tackle the
    eurozone crisis, saying it was not in the uk's interests."

    bbc news - david cameron blocks eu-wide deal to tackle euro crisis

    [this was from my earlier posting to you (number 4) on the topic.]



    i suggest you read gavin hewitt's article (see link above) to learn about this in more detail.



    As i say, maybe do a bit of reading...
    Actually, I've done plenty of reading, but I don't get my news/political views from the pro EU BBC. In fact the BBC is the last place I'd go to get factual unbiased news.

    There was no veto, there was no treaty. It is all bread and circuses. There was never going to be a new treaty or amendments because this would have triggered a referendum in some countries, something that the Merkozy wanted to avoid at all costs. However, Merkozy needed a way out of the treaty route, and what better way to do it, then to blame the boy blunder dizzy Dave.

    So, Merkozy has extracted themselves from this conundrum and laid the blame squarely at the feet of Cameron, a win-win situation for them.

    As I keep saying, there was no veto or treaty and like it or not, you can't argue with that. Now, if you would like to understand the situation a bit better, then perhaps you would like to do a bit of reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Road_Hog View Post
    I don't get my news/political views from the pro EU BBC. In fact the BBC is the last place I'd go to get factual unbiased news.
    I think that says it all. You believe what you want to believe. It's Christmas soon anyway.

    Euro Summit: David Cameron Says He 'Put Britain First' After Veto On EU Treaty Deal | Business | Sky News
    Last edited by CB100; 13-12-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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