Thread: Are you ready for Salmond's St. Andrew's day betrayal?

Originally Posted by RJK

You have an unfounded bias against the SNP, blaming them for not supporting your passionate hate for the monarchy. By claiming that the SNP wouldn't be the best chance Scotland has of becoming truly independent is absurd.

Address me on this one issue:

SNP - The only party who want a referendum on independence. Haven't ruled out a referendum on monarchy. Can't it then be said that they are:

The only party anyone in Scotland should vote for if they believe in independence and want it to be a reality?

It is not "unfounded". I have a whole website and forums to found my views on. Click here to discover the foundations of my political views.
Peter Dow's Scottish National Standard Bearer website
Administrator, The For Freedom Forums.

The SNP don't support true independence just kiddy-on independence like the Aussies have got.

No I think the Greens and the Scottish socialists and many other groups support the principle of an independence referendum. I have no objections to a fair referendum - I am simply pointing out that Salmond's referendum plan is rigged against independence from day one.

If the SNP want a referendum on independence then answer me why Salmond has put retaining the Queen on the ballot paper, because retaining the Queen is not independence, it is slavery?

The Salmond government have also ruled out a fair referendum by keeping the Queen and the royal family in Scotland during the referendum campaign and keeping the control of state broadcasting in the hands of royalists so that the best arguments for Scottish independence - the republican arguments - won't be allowed to be heard in full or in any way balanced coverage compared to the decades of pro-Queen propaganda the Scots have been brainwashed with.

Well like I said I voted for the SNP MSP in one election. Fair enough, vote for them. I am just saying don't trust them with independence because they are betraying independence every chance they get to support the Queen and sell the Scots out.

I do wish there were better options to vote for. I would like to see a Scottish republican party which was not pro-Cuba Marxists like the Scottish socialists. I would be prepared to lead a Scottish republican party if others would follow.

So fair enough if you end up voting for them, but it is no way to get independence. Much better to get on the internet and explain to SNP supporters why the SNP are not going to deliver true independence.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

The SNP don't support true independence just kiddy-on independence like the Aussies have got.

So your claiming Australia isn't an independent country? Is it still joined to the hip of a failing union? No.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

No I think the Greens and the Scottish socialists and many other groups support the principle of an independence referendum.

Yes, I said that in my previous post, your just repeating me.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

I have no objections to a fair referendum - I am simply pointing out that Salmond's referendum plan is rigged against independence from day one.

Can't you see your error of logic with this one? This referendum is a fair referendum. Its 'remain as part of the UK' or 'Scotland to become independent' whilst in the meantime retaining the monarchy.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

If the SNP want a referendum on independence then answer me why Salmond has put retaining the Queen on the ballot paper, because retaining the Queen is not independence, it is slavery?

Peter, I already have answered you. Your just not listening to me nor reason. If the SNP said No to the Queen, they would not be the Government in Scotland right now. Its simple. Public support in Scotland for the Queen is in majority right now. Face it! So far, there hasn't been any uproar against the Queen, at least not near the uproar for becoming independent..

... As reflected by the Scottish National Party becoming the Government of Scotland.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

The Salmond government have also ruled out a fair referendum by keeping the Queen and the royal family in Scotland during the referendum campaign and keeping the control of state broadcasting in the hands of royalists so that the best arguments for Scottish independence - the republican arguments - won't be allowed to be heard in full or in any way balanced coverage compared to the decades of pro-Queen propaganda the Scots have been brainwashed with.

I think your paranoid. Your claiming the SNP are happy with the BBC's bias against them and indeed independence for Scotland. But your not applying reason AT ALL. It isn't the SNP who encourage bias reporting against them at all. And what does BBC stand for?

British Broadcasting Corporation.

What power do the SNP have over a non-governmental, publicly funded UK institution? Please, enlighten me Peter. It is a fair proposed referendum. Its a referendum, as I've stated for the last few times, on whether or not Scotland should be part of the UK.

The question of monarchy is secondary - it'd mean less than half of the support for independence that we have now. Ergo, no chance if you had your way. People have a right to want the Queen or not, but only as an independent state is when we will get that choice.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

Well like I said I voted for the SNP MSP in one election. Fair enough, vote for them. I am just saying don't trust them with independence because they are betraying independence every chance they get to support the Queen and sell the Scots out.

Its good you voted for the SNP. You claim the SNP are betraying independence. What are the other political parties doing? Not even letting us vote in a referendum! And you class betraying independence as not unilaterally denying the Queen her throne in Scotland..

Even though she is half Scottish. Even though she'd be Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland.

I think that Scots have been getting 'sold out' for many years, not only since the 70's with our oil. Getting closer to real independence can only be a good thing my friend.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

I do wish there were better options to vote for. I would like to see a Scottish republican party which was not pro-Cuba Marxists like the Scottish socialists. I would be prepared to lead a Scottish republican party if others would follow.

So fair enough if you end up voting for them, but it is no way to get independence. Much better to get on the internet and explain to SNP supporters why the SNP are not going to deliver true independence.

Since the SNP is a catch-all party, who's members share the ideology of a Scottish Republic, why not make your views heard there? As we both know, even the SNP is divided on the issue.

And can't you just admit that it makes our chances of getting independence better ANYWAY, if the SNP choose to remain loyal to the Queen for the time being?

As I say. Once QE II dies, we'll have a referendum on monarchy. Maybe even before. But what we need is to have a new Scottish constitution. And that will only happen, realistically, by the Scottish National Party either getting this referendum passed in Holyrood or indeed voted in with a majority in 2011.

Merely slandering the SNP because they don't have 100% the same views as you is foolish. If your Scottish, proud, and you want independence; you should embrace the Scottish National Party.

Public image is so much in politics, agreed? Therefore, if the SNP were complete separatists, they'd get no where fast. Given that the majority of Scots feel retaining the monarchy is a good thing, then you can't argue with that. By all means you can express your opinion but you have only your own opinion as evidence, you can't speak representatively for the people of Scotland.

The SNP does have people who are against and for the retention of the monarchy. Therefore, leaning on the side of public opinion is certainly the best way to go.

Originally Posted by RJK

So your claiming Australia isn't an independent country? Is it still joined to the hip of a failing union? No.

The Australians are joined to the hip of a failing Queen's realm, a kind of global "United Kingdoms" you might say.

I am encouraging Australians to take the final step to independence and dump the Queen, become a republic and elect their own president as head of state.

It is not me who is denying the Australians their fully fledged independence and kidding the Australians on with TV brainwashing - it is the Queen's Australian Governor General, the Queen's Australian ministers, officers and the rest. The Australians are being betrayed and enslaved to the Queen by their traitor politicians same as we Scots, English, Welsh etc are being betrayed.

The betrayal of the national independence of the Australians is being perpetrated by the same kind of royalists as Salmond who too are happy with their independence as the Queen's ministers - the ministers are independent from accountability to the Australian people who can't properly hold their lackey traitor politicians to account same as we can't.

You need to ask if the Australians who died in the Australian bush fires were independent or whether they died because the Queen's authorities fined them if they dared to cut the bush back around their houses to make a fire break?

See my thread here -
Australian bush-fires, 170 dead. Queen Elizabeth guilty of mass-manslaughter

The Australians are being killed because the royalists are denying them their rights to elect their own president to defend them.

The other point is it is Salmond who wants to keep Scots joined at the hip to the failing Union of the Crowns.

Originally Posted by RJK

Can't you see your error of logic with this one? This referendum is a fair referendum. Its 'remain as part of the UK' or 'Scotland to become independent' whilst in the meantime retaining the monarchy.

It is not fair because independence is not being offered honestly. The Queen is being lumped in there at the same time.

Originally Posted by RJK

Peter, I already have answered you. Your just not listening to me nor reason. If the SNP said No to the Queen, they would not be the Government in Scotland right now. Its simple.

Well so what? The SNP government are delivering nothing for me. I don't know about you but I am still a slave.

Originally Posted by RJK

Public support in Scotland for the Queen is in majority right now. Face it! So far, there hasn't been any uproar against the Queen, at least not near the uproar for becoming independent..

... As reflected by the Scottish National Party becoming the Government of Scotland.

Uproar gets you nowhere. I can assure you when the Nazis turned the gas on in the gas chambers there was uproar aplenty until the victims died from the poison gas. Uproar gets you nothing.

A republican army gets a nation freedom and independence. Roaring is for Hampden Park.

For centuries the royalists have ruled by exterminating people in uproar. For them, it is fun.

Scottish leaders can put aside trying to win popular support when the system is rigged against us. We need to fight using all means necessary to remove the Queen and then AFTER she is gone you can get a fair debate on TV.

Originally Posted by RJK

I think your paranoid. Your claiming the SNP are happy with the BBC's bias against them and indeed independence for Scotland. But your not applying reason AT ALL. It isn't the SNP who encourage bias reporting against them at all. And what does BBC stand for?

British Broadcasting Corporation.

Firstly, the BBC in Scotland is strongly supporting ALL the royalist parties, Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems AND the SNP. Salmond's puss is hardly ever off the TV.

I am unhappy that the royalist parties such the SNP get so much support on the TV. I wish it was more balanced between royalists and republicans.

Originally Posted by RJK

What power do the SNP have over a non-governmental, publicly funded UK institution? Please, enlighten me Peter. It is a fair proposed referendum. Its a referendum, as I've stated for the last few times, on whether or not Scotland should be part of the UK.

It is not fair because it lies about what the word "independence" means. It tries to kid on independence can mean surrender to the Queen as head of state. It is not a fair referendum - it is a piece of royalist propaganda to cement the rule of the Union of the Crowns.

Originally Posted by RJK

The question of monarchy is secondary - it'd mean less than half of the support for independence that we have now. Ergo, no chance if you had your way. People have a right to want the Queen or not, but only as an independent state is when we will get that choice.

We Scots will be just as much slaves to the Union of the Crowns under a "independent" royalist state as we are now.

Forget an independent state. We need an independent nation - with the state accountable to the nation. It is the Scots who need independence. The Scottish state is ALREADY independent. They do what they like to us and we have no rights.

Originally Posted by RJK

Its good you voted for the SNP. You claim the SNP are betraying independence. What are the other political parties doing? Not even letting us vote in a referendum! And you class betraying independence as not unilaterally denying the Queen her throne in Scotland.

"her throne"? She has no rights to rule Scots. If you think she has - YOU are the traitor!

Originally Posted by RJK

Even though she is half Scottish. Even though she'd be Queen Elizabeth I of Scotland.

Well there are plenty of full Scots who would do a better job of head of state - me for one.

I suppose you would be happy with a King Thomas Hamilton of Dunblane because he was a Scot? Maybe you would be twice as happy because he was 100% Scottish but the Queen is only "half Scottish"?

You are selling the Scots into slavery to the Queen because she is half Scottish. What a traitor you are indeed!

Originally Posted by RJK

I think that Scots have been getting 'sold out' for many years, not only since the 70's with our oil. Getting closer to real independence can only be a good thing my friend.

No this fraudulent referendum gets us further away from real independence because it tells lies about what "independence" means - it confuses the Scots and stops them fighting for REAL, TRUE Scottish NATIONAL independence.

Originally Posted by RJK

Since the SNP is a catch-all party, who's members share the ideology of a Scottish Republic, why not make your views heard there? As we both know, even the SNP is divided on the issue.

I went along to a SNP conference in Aberdeen one year and was turned away - not allowed in even as a guest. If the SNP website wants to link to my website they are welcome to do so.

Originally Posted by RJK

And can't you just admit that it makes our chances of getting independence better ANYWAY, if the SNP choose to remain loyal to the Queen for the time being?

No because it won't make our chances better. Political discussion like here on the internet might, but the referendum Salmond plans won't.

Originally Posted by RJK

As I say. Once QE II dies, we'll have a referendum on monarchy. Maybe even before. But what we need is to have a new Scottish constitution. And that will only happen, realistically, by the Scottish National Party either getting this referendum passed in Holyrood or indeed voted in with a majority in 2011.

We are going round in circles. It is wrong to wait until the Queen dies. Did we wait until Hitler died or did we go to war against him?

Originally Posted by RJK

Merely slandering the SNP because they don't have 100% the same views as you is foolish. If your Scottish, proud, and you want independence; you should embrace the Scottish National Party.

The SNP under Salmond are not true nationalists but traitors, they don't want true independence but a fraudulent royalist version.

Originally Posted by RJK

Public image is so much in politics, agreed? Therefore, if the SNP were complete separatists, they'd get no where fast. Given that the majority of Scots feel retaining the monarchy is a good thing, then you can't argue with that.

Yes you CAN argue with that. That is what political leadership is all about. Arguing with stupid people doing stupid self-destructive things.

Originally Posted by RJK

By all means you can express your opinion but you have only your own opinion as evidence, you can't speak representatively for the people of Scotland.

If I want to know what the mass of Scots think I will ask the BBC what they will be telling the Scots to think. I know what I think and what I am doing - it is not representation but leadership to help the Scots understand where and why we are going wrong as a nation.

Originally Posted by RJK

The SNP does have people who are against and for the retention of the monarchy. Therefore, leaning on the side of public opinion is certainly the best way to go.

Well if Salmond and the SNP want to get elected on a platform to betray the Scots then no doubt that is what you will do - but you will get called the traitors you are for doing so.

Originally Posted by Peter Dow

BBC: Alex Salmond talks about his plans for Scotland's future

The cause of Scottish national independence is to be sold out by Alex Salmond on St Andrew's day when he publicizes his white paper much-hyped as an \\"independence referendum\\" white paper and plan.

It is a lie. It is a fraud. It does not offer Scottish national independence.

The referendum plan that Salmond and the Queen's civil servants have come up with is for an independent Queen's state with the Scots to be denied our national independence.

So long as we Scots are denied the right to elect our own head of state, a president, of a Scottish republic, we will not be independent but enslaved by the Queen's state.

What Salmond proposes is not a half-way house to Scottish national independence either. A Queen's Scottish state would not be progress. We already have a Queen's Scottish state and Salmond is the Queen's first minister already.

Salmond's referendum plan is a plan for the status quo which is the Saltire used as an alternative Queen's butcher's apron for the Queen's ministers and officers in Scotland.

Salmond's plan is not a plan for us Scots - it is a plan against us Scots, to keep us down and under the brutal heel of the Queen's ministers and officers.

The danger is that there will also be republicans who foolishly welcome Salmond's referendum plan as, so we are told, \\"a move forward, a half-way house to a Scottish republic\\". Lies, lies and more lies.

To see Scottish republicans dance to Salmond's royalist tune is even more of a betrayal.

Scottish republicans expect to be betrayed by royalists. But when republicans betray the cause of an independent Scottish republic by agreeing with royalists' plans it is an unexpected betrayal.

I will not betray the cause of an independent Scottish republic and I call every co-called \\"Scottish republican\\" who supports Salmond's referendum plan announced on Monday \\"TRAITOR!\\" because that is what they will be.

See these topics and polls in the Users and Guests forum of the For Freedom Forums.

Sticky: [ Poll ] What do you think about Salmond's plan for a referendum?

Sticky: [ Poll ] If Alex Salmond shat on a plate and called it 'mince' ...

You, my 'fellow Scot' are a first class nutter!

You want to physically ban the Queen from Scottish soil? lmao!

Not agreeing with her position is acceptable however, I would not go as far as to banning her and her family from Scotland.

It's people like you that drag Scotland down.

Originally Posted by Austin Sheridan

You, my 'fellow Scot' are a first class nutter!

You want to physically ban the Queen from Scottish soil? lmao!

Not agreeing with her position is acceptable however, I would not go as far as to banning her and her family from Scotland.

It's people like you that drag Scotland down.

What Scotland really needs is to be part of Europe. An open borders policy whereby immigrants from Latvia, Somalia, Turkey and other countries can live happily and in peace, building up their own communities in small towns around Scotland. This would be an excellent result, and the curse of nationalism would perish from Scottish soil. Forever!
This would make an Englishman like me very happy indeed, so I wish the SNP the best of luck.

Originally Posted by RJK

Look, Peter.

You hate the Queen, yet if offered to be head of state, you'd snap at the chance.

Yes but I would not snap at the chance of being King. In fact I would REFUSE to be king. I would snap at the chance at standing for election to be the first president of a Scottish republic. Yes, I would snap at that chance.

Originally Posted by RJK

Your unwaivering hate for the monarchy doesn't allow you to apply reason to your arguement!

It is precisely because I have reasons such as all the unnecessary deaths of Scots caused by this Queen, and by previous monarchs, that I hate the monarchy.

Your failure to understand the reasons for disasters such as Dunblane, Piper Alpha, North Sea Helicopter, various murders, that could have been avoided if we Scots had had a president and constitutional rights to allow us the freedom to stop dangerous men and dangerous decisions being made.

Things don't just go terribly wrong for no reason. People die for a reason. Somebody did something wrong for a reason that no good person was allowed to stop them. No good person stopped the stupid person because the Queen and her state stopped the good person stopping the bad person.

It is a complicated reason. You don't understand complicated things. You don't understand the reason for having a president to defend freedom.

You saw no reason not to trust Piper Alpha managers. You saw no reason not to trust Bond Helicopter. You saw no reason not to trust the police when they give out a fire arms certificate to Thomas Hamiliton.

I see the reasons not to trust the Queen, her state and the stupid things they get up to. I see the reason for a electing a president to give us freedom to speak out about stupid people in charge.

You see no reason why stupid people shouldn't allowed to be head of state and run things. I do see the reason for stopping stupid people getting innocent people killed.

All you see is the BBC telling you to love the Queen as head of state and it is YOU who have no good reasons for your support for the Queen.

Originally Posted by RJK

You form all your arguements on that hatred, and use your own arguements to justify the hate for the monarchy - and hate for the SNP because Scottish MSP's didn't help you out when you swore at police officers.

Well actually that was when there was a Labour/Lib Dem Holyrood Executive and my local constituency MSP was Lib Dem and my MP was Labour.

And I voted SNP last time so it is not that precisely.

The Queen does allow her police, judges and psychiatrists to jail or section people for swearing at the police.

If someone had sworn at the police for giving Hamilton a fire arms certificate before the massacre, they too could have gone to jail or mental hospital and Hamilton would have killed the children just the same.

I hate the stupid killers who kill Scots or the stupid state officers who get them killed and the fact that no-one can kick up a fuss about all those innocent Scots being killed without themselves going to jail or mental hospital.

It is a terrible, terrible thing to have state power in the hands of complete idiots.

Originally Posted by RJK

You don't realise, or if you do, you don't accept that you are a minority in Scotland.

I do realise that clever people like myself are in a minority in Scotland same as every other country in the world. It is the duty of caring clever people to speak up and protest when the stupid majority is doing very dangerous things that are killing innocent Scots.

Originally Posted by RJK

You and I are on the same wavelength on longing for Scotland to be completely, 100% independent. However, I find your hatred of the Scottish National Party completely contradictory.

You DON'T want Scotland to be independent of the Queen. You want to retain the Queen. That is 100% the dependent status quo as far as the Scots being denied the right to elect our own head of state is concerned.

You are on the royalist dependence on the Queen, denying Scots the independence to elect our own head of state wavelength.

I am on the republican true Scottish independence from the Queen wavelength.

We are on different wavelengths - I want true independence - you want to tell Scots to accept the Queen with no say in the matter.

Originally Posted by RJK

I've said before, there are people in the SNP who support and those that don't support the retention of a monarchy.

Well traitors like Salmond should not be leading the party. As a royalist supporter of the Queen he should have been banned under party rules for standing for the leadership of an independence party when he doesn't support true independence and wants to keep dependence on the Queen.

Royalists like yourself should sit at the back of SNP party meetings and let republicans take the platform to explain what true independence means.

Originally Posted by RJK

I'm telling you now - the only way we will go from 1707 law to 1604 is through the retention of the monarchy until QE II dies.

Who wants to go back to 1604? Not me. That is stupid, also impossible outside Doctor Who programmes.

Originally Posted by RJK

You don't understand that if the SNP said they would automatically deny the monarchy in Scotland, it not only provides more for the unionists to use against the SNP - the public support for independence would drop dramatically.

The SNP now under Salmond are a UNIONIST PARTY! You are supporting the Union of the Crowns, a monarchical and social UNION.

The only way you are going to break up the union is to start taking on the unionists with good arguments for independence - such as the chance to elect a really good head of state, a president of a Scottish republic.

I am not saying it will be easy with the BBC brainwashing people in favour of the monarchy but that is the way to go.

Originally Posted by RJK

Thus. We need to keep the SNP - we need to keep the monarchy - and of course, Scotland will retain the right to have a referendum on the monarchy in due course.

Well a referendum to dump the monarchy is the only kind of true independence so that would be the true independence referendum. It is false to call a referendum which retains the Queen as an "independence referendum".

Originally Posted by RJK

Your trying to run before you can walk, Scotland's independent future is on the horizon and yes, indeed, the SNP are the only party that promises to take referendum and independence plans forward in Scotland.

The SNP have promised to retain the Queen and therefore to deny Scots true independence.
SNP royalist traitors!

Originally Posted by Austin Sheridan

You want to physically ban the Queen from Scottish soil? ...

Not agreeing with her position is acceptable however, I would not go as far as to banning her and her family from Scotland.

The ban is an essential part of ousting the Queen as the head of state.

Unless the emerging Scottish republic establishes itself by banning the Queen to prove, to the officers of the Scottish state as much as anyone, that the Queen is no longer the head of state in Scotland, then there will be much scepticism that a Scottish republican state is being born and that there needs to be a republican constitution agreed and an election called to elect the Scottish president and so on.

In the earliest days of political transition if the Queen and her family are still making appearances around Scotland, reviewing the troops, meeting the public, visiting parliament, then most Scots will just assume that she is still head of state and there is no Scottish republic on the cards.

Whereas if the Queen and her family are banned and seen to be banned then Scots will take the new republic as a fact and get down to the business of running a republic.

It is not like having an established republic such as the USA where the Queen can visit without anyone thinking that the Queen is Queen of the USA as well as Canada.

Originally Posted by Austin Sheridan

It's people like you that drag Scotland down.

No son. It is the Queen who rigs the elections to parliaments by insisting that only stupid, bad and offensive people who swear allegiance to the Queen get to take up their seats who let the Scots down.

Originally Posted by Remington Steele

What Scotland really needs is to be part of Europe. An open borders policy whereby immigrants from Latvia, Somalia, Turkey and other countries can live happily and in peace, building up their own communities in small towns around Scotland.

See this thread for criticism of opening the borders to convicted killers from other countries.

Europe's convicted killers free and murdering in Scotland (and Britain)

Yes we should allow people of good character in but not bad ones. We should never trust the Queen with our borders - she will get innocents killed again and again.

Originally Posted by Remington Steele

This would be an excellent result, and the curse of nationalism would perish from Scottish soil. Forever!
This would make an Englishman like me very happy indeed, so I wish the SNP the best of luck.

"Curse of nationalism"?

Well the Soviet communists claimed to be Soviet nationalists, though they were not very good nationalists. Likewise, the Chinese communists claim to be Chinese nationalists though again not very good ones. In fact every communist party in any country always claims to be for the interests of the nation, the people of that country.

It is just not realistic to believe that any party of any political philosophy could come to power in a country without claiming to look after the people of that country and put them first in the considerations of the party. Whether a party calls itself "Nationalist" or not, it needs to BE nationalist in some way to get power.

Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat also too claim to be for the interests of the British nation, or the Scottish nation when speaking in Scotland.

This "curse" you talk about is the gravity of politics. It is just a fact of life.

Also you call yourself an Englishman - so you are claiming English nationality. You wish the SNP the best of luck -to the SNP, a Scottish nationalist party (they claim, though I think they are not very good nationalists).

You are like a woman complaining about the "curse" of her own period, when it a strong indicator that she is fertile. The true curse for women is when they stop menstruating and can no longer conceive children. The true curse for a political party is when they stop fighting for their nation and start fighting for a monarch.

Therefore the SNP - supporting the Queen - opposing the independent sovereign right of the Scots to elect our own head of state - this is the SNP cursing themselves.

Also you claim to be a communist yet you wish the SNP royalists the best of luck. Do you wish the Queen the best of luck even when that harms the community? You are a very strange communist!