Tom Wilde

Maybe! Consistency's the thing. There seems good evidence that Michael Pagram not only was a UKIP councillor (as he was elected on a UKIP ticket in 2003) but still is (as evidenced by the letter he recently wrote to the local paper and which I quoted and which you have just quoted me quoting). But if you accept Michael Pagram as a UKIP councillor, despite him being listed as 'Independence Group', then why de-list John Moore, who was the subject of a UKIP press release when he defected to UKIP in 2004?

Thanks for quoting my post and AndyPandy's reply, but really you need to also quote my reply to AndyPandy. I could do that, but then we'd have this thread simply replicating the existing one, which would make my head spin. If people really want to read it, they can go to the other thread. In short, I stick by my guns and say the available evidence suggests Michael Pagram should be still considered a UKIP councillor.

Tony Bennett

According to this pdf. file, a recent North Devon District Council Report, UKIP as a party is not recognised in the allocation of seats and I assume therefore that Michael Pagram is listed as part of the 'North Devon Independence Group'. He may be a UKIP member, but he does not appear to promote himself as a UKIP Councillor:

http://www.northdevon.gov.uk/council...t_covering.pdf

Tom Wilde

Thanks for posting that link, giving allocations of committee places on the basis of group size. That's just it, dotcha see? If you are an isolated councillor, you have no hope of any committee places or of the local power that goes with them. Team up with a few likeminded independents as a council-recognized 'group' and you will get committee places. But if you do that, then the council website will list you as a member of that group, not as a member of UKIP. This is one of the many reasons that you won't get a definitive figure for the number of UKIP councillors in Britain just from studying council websites, even if you have the time to study them all.

tamashi

Tom is exactly right, just as the Local Government Association only recognises Labour, Lib-Dem, Tory and Others the local authorities are exactly the same. Take a local authority with 50 members made up as

20 Labour, 15 Lib-Dem, 10 Tory and 5 others

Unless the "others" officially form a group and register this with the local democratic services officer of their council then they are treated as 5 individuals. The Political Groups are dealt with through their leaders. So on each Committee.

Labour get 20/50 of the seats, Lib Dems get 15/50, Tories 10/50 and the 5 others get 1/50 each.

This means the others never get a chance on an interesting committee until there are 50 members, in other words full council. In practise the group leaders get together and devide up the committees amongst themselves, leaving the others the odd seat here and there that no-one from the groups actually wants. If the 5 Others form a group then they get 5/50 seats or 1 seat in every commitee with 10 or more members.

Its a numbers game. If the Tories and Others got together then they as a group would get the same seat allocation as the Lib-Dems. If the Lid-Dems, Tories and Others formed a Group then they would have control of the Council.

Steve Allison the UKIP Councillor on Hartlepool Borough Council is part of the "administation group" which is him, 5 of the Council's indpendents and the 5 Tories, making 11 in the group from 47 seats. This gives the Administation Group Councillors a bigger group than the Lib-Dems and they were able to take several chairs and vice chairs of committees (including Vice Chair of the Council and Chair of Licensing) away from them. It also allowed Steve Allison a seat on the Cleveland Fire Authority which he would never hav got as a single UKIP Councillor.

This is why single UKIP or Independent Councillors are almost always a waste of time. They never get into positions of influence and are left on the sidelines. It is only as a group that you have the numbers to do anything. Of course once there are enough UKIP Councillors on a local authority then you can form your own group. As a rough rule you need about 1/7 seats to be an effective group and influence what is going on. This is why the Tories in Hartlepool Council sit in the Administative group, there are not enough of them to be effective as Tories.

Tony Bennett

This (below, from the BBC) was a good 'UKIP Local Councillor' story in 2004. But then came the 2005 election (see second article). At least Chris Lees is still one of UKIP's 9 (or is it 10?) local Councillors:

================================================== ==========================

Two councillors defect to UKIP

Two councillors in the West have defected to the UK Independence Party.
Gary Phipps, of Gloucestershire County Council, moved from the Tories, and Chris Lees of South Gloucestershire Council, from the Lib Dems.
Mr Phipps serves Severn Dean and said he switched because of what he describes as the encroachment of EU powers into local authority business.
Mr Lees serves Bradley Stoke. The pair give both councils their first UKIP representatives.

"I will fight for local council to have greater control over its own finances and we are against regionalisation," he told the BBC.

["It is unfortunate that no one voted for them as part of the UKIP party" - Petrina Holdsworth, UKIP chairman]

Mr Lees added: "It is about giving power back to local people.

"When I was elected there was a 30% turnout - 70% of people are disaffected. I want to give disenfranchised people the opportunity to get back into local politics."

Power at Gloucestershire County Council lies with a Labour/Lib Dem coalition.

Although the Conservatives are the largest party with 26 seats (after Mr Phipps defection), his decision will not affect the political balance.
Conservative councillors criticised the move, saying Mr Phipps has let his colleagues and voters down.

South Gloucestershire is a hung council, with all three main parties co-operating in a power share. Mr Lees is the first UKIP representative there.

Petrina Holdsworth, chairman, of UKIP rejected the suggestion the two councillors should resign and re-stand on a UKIP ticket: "MPs don't have to - they just see the light and go. "It is unfortunate that no one voted for them as part of the UKIP party, but they will be able to do so next time."

================================================== ==========================

Electoral Division
Name of Candidate
Address and Description of Candidate (where given)
Number of Votes

WESTGATE

BILTCLIFFE Benedict Dan (Commonly known as Ben) Flat 2, 8 Belgrave Road, Gloucester, GL1 1QZ
Green Party
524

HARTLEY Bernadette Isobel, Chad Cottage, Buttermilk Lane, Churchdown, Glos, GL3 2JA
The Labour Party Candidate
2010

HEATH Gordon, 13 St Swithuns Road, Hempsted, Gloucester, GL2 5LH
Liberal Democrat
2333

HILTON Jeremy Eric, 65 Oxford Road, Kingsholm, Gloucester, GL1 3EE Liberal Democrat
2509

MORELAND Robert John, 3 The Firs, Heathville Road, Gloucester, GL1 3EW
The Conservative Party Candidate
2438

PHIPPS Gary William, 12 Woodpeckers Close, Ashleworth, Glos, GL19 4JS
UK Independence Party
330

PURCHASE David Richard, 11 The Merryfields, Haresfield, Glos, GL10 3EF
The Labour Party Candidate
1452

TRACEY Pamela Elizabeth, 50 Henry Road, Gloucester, GL1 3DY
The Conservative Party Candidate
2668

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

prober

There seems to be confusion between Councillors that stood as UKIP ( which are then easily located on Council websites) and UKIP sympathetic councillors that stood as Independents ( which of course are not) and groupings of minor parties/independents ( inc UKIP councillors) into " Independent " groupings versus the ruling party of the Council. There is no technical difficulty in knowing what UKIP councillors there are, just effort in phoning branches or looking at websites. All info is out of date re defections as though most councils post by election results they might not post party switches ( which in any case may be declarations of intent not re registration of which party the Councillor acts for )

Tom Wilde

That's right. That is why Gary Phipps isn't on the UNOFFICIAL list of UKIP councillors in the other thread. Sad to relate, councillors who defect to UKIP from other parties do sometimes fail to be re-elected for UKIP when their turn comes. (eg the two Tories on Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council who defected to UKIP in, was it also, 2004?).This is a problem that UKIP shares with all other parties. Or have I missed the point of your post? :?

The UNOFFICIAL list of UKIP councillors in the other thread excludes the latter category. It includes only councillors who were either elected on a UKIP ticket or who later explicitly defected to UKIP from some other party.

Best o' luck with that, and remember to post your findings here!

Correctamento!

prober

Dont worry , the ROs have got it sorted as part of Nigel's grand plan.

amazing! :P :P
http://nencyalba.info/blog/news/224103
regards, Mojoterten6