mkpdavies

I have just realised something.

The Lib Dems have said they will

a) Scrap ID cards.
b) Give us a referendum on EU membership.

That's pretty much my immediete concerns.

Why shouldn't I vote for them in the Tory/Lib Dem Marginal, where the Tory doesn't offer us a referendum and his party are wishy washy on the ID card issue.

Yes yes, I understand they are a bunch of Europhile socialist scumbags, but then so are the others. They hate freedom and they will smack us hard with their idiotic mission to control the planets climate.

BUT. We will have the chance to get out of the EU. Finally the people will either save the country or consign it to the dustbin of history.

Blue Labour won't give us any relief and neither will Old Labour. Indeed, they will just implement the same crazy plans as the Lib Dems, as commanded by their EU masters.

I have the choice of a turd, a mouldy turd or a rancid turd, but with a little nugget of cold in it. That little nugget of gold could be the only chance we have.

Why not?

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Millennium3

I think you know MKPD that the Lib/Dems are only offering this referendum in place of one on the Reform Treaty because they know one on the RT would be lost and one on our membership of the EU would be won.

Virtually all of the politicians familiar to the public, along with the media, would be campaigning for a 'yes' vote with many gravely predicting the end of Britain if we came out. This set against an increasingly disintegrating anti EU movement.

The time is not right to win a vote on our membership of the EU - if it were held and lost - our fate would be sealed.

Brown might yet use this tactic if he cannot hold the line on 'no referendum' on the RT.

mkpdavies

Quote:

one on our membership of the EU would be won.

I wouldn't be so sure. But if the British people do vote for enslavement, then fine, at least I will be content in the knowledge that they will get all they deserve.

Quote:

Virtually all of the politicians familiar to the public, along with the media, would be campaigning for a 'yes' vote

Just like in the NE referendum you mean. I don't think people have much time for the MSM or politicans. Them campaigning for yes could = a massive no.

Quote:

The time is not right to win a vote on our membership of the EU

Yes it is. It is long overdue. I have never had a say and I want one NOW!

Quote:

if it were held and lost - our fate would be sealed.

And it would be deserved and I could feck of to Costa Rica with my concious clear, that the British people really do deserve all they get.

Quote:

Brown might yet use this tactic if he cannot hold the line on 'no referendum' on the RT.

I will forgive all the damage he has done if he does. The PM that gives the countries people a say on the issue at last, would go down as a hero.

If we leave it much longer, there will be a minority of Brits doing the voting anyway.

It's now or never.

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Westcountryman

the Tories have also pledged to scrap ID cards. It's not clear if they'd give a retrospective referendum on the Lisbon Treaty or not.

I'm not voting Lib Dem - they've ****** Cornwall well and truly.

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Millennium3

As you will realise, I favour a more 'safe but sure' approach - but this will only be possible if the anti EU movement recognise the great danger of not working together.

If you do join the Lib/Dems your, hopefully, frequent accounts of your adventure should make interesting reading.

mkpdavies

I'm not joining the *****!

But I might vote for them, seeing as they are offering the EU referendum I want and they could knock out Malins, who is truly treacherous on the EU issue, just like the rest of Blue Labour.

Time is running out big time for this country. More Brits are leaving and more EU people are coming in. Leave it much longer and we truly will have nil chance of winning a referendum.

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Millennium3

From today's Telegraph:

Tories should pledge a vote on being in the EU
By Iain Dale
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 23/11/2007

Stealing other parties' policies is almost de rigueur for politicians nowadays. Gordon Brown is the busiest magpie of all: none the less I suggest that David Cameron looks to the Lib Dems to steal a policy that might mean the difference between being the largest party in a hung parliament and being prime minister of a government with a Conservative majority.

Iain Dale's Diary: Political commentary from heart of Westminster
For a decade, the Tories have struggled to develop a strategy to minimise the threat from the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP). In both 2001 and 2005, UKIP's presence in marginals is estimated to have cost the Conservatives between 20 and 30 seats. If that were to happen in 2009 or 2010, it might mean the difference between a hung parliament and an overall majority, or even the difference between a hung parliament and a Labour majority.

One thing the Conservatives have learnt is that you can never appease UKIP. No matter how Euro-sceptic you appear, it wants only one thing - withdrawal from the EU. Nothing else matters. You can argue with it until you are blue in the face that, if it puts up candidates in Labour marginals, it will only achieve the increased likelihood of a Europhile government. But it can't see beyond its short-term blinkers.

UKIP's leader, Nigel Farage, has said he will not put up candidates against MPs and candidates from other parties who sign up to the Better Off Out campaign, but even then he adds that UKIP will stand down only if it judges the candidate to be genuine. How nice of it.

Since David Cameron became leader, he has tried to avoid the European issue dominating political debate. It is only the European constitution that has encouraged him to speak. He - alone among the three party leaders - has re-committed his party to holding a referendum on the European reform treaty.

But he has been outgunned by the Lib Dems, who have refused to offer a referendum on the treaty and instead have said there should be a referendum on EU membership itself, to settle the issue once and for all.

Most commentators reckon it's a little odd for a Europhile party to come up with such a policy, but by proposing a referendum on "In or Out", the Lib Dems have made it mainstream and acceptable. Some Labour MPs also think it is a good idea. If the Conservatives had proposed it when Michael Howard was leader, it would have been written up as yet another sign of a move to the Right. Now that the Lib Dems back it, such a tag would be more difficult to make stick.

So what would happen if Cameron borrowed this Lib Dem policy? Well, in one fell swoop he could kill UKIP and negate its reason for existing. No one seriously believes UKIP can ever wield power. It can never achieve its ultimate aim. Its supporters are by no means all former Tories, but they all have one thing in common: they vote on a single issue. But wouldn't it create yet another split on Europe within the Conservatives, and make it appear divided? Well, not if the leadership repeated the stance of 1975 and allowed its MPs and candidates to campaign according to their consciences. Face it, there are Euro-sceptics in all political parties, not just the Conservatives.

At the last election, UKIP gained more than 600,000 votes. It is entirely conceivable that this number could halve anyway, even without any Conservative commitment to an "In or Out" referendum. The party has failed to make any headway recently. Already, some of its leading lights are speculating that it won't be able to field more than a couple of hundred candidates at the next election. Its desire to expand its policy platform beyond its unique selling point of EU withdrawal means that its efforts are diluted.

So it may be argued that the Conservatives need do nothing, and just watch UKIP wither on the vine. This would be a mistake. Ignoring parties such as UKIP is invariably something the major parties live to regret. Their arguments need to be taken on and countered. If Labour had taken on the BNP in Burnley and other towns in the North, the BNP might have been strangled at birth.

There may well be other ways of countering the UKIP threat, apart from following the Lib Dems down the road of an "In or Out" referendum. But the Conservative Party needs to work out what they are, and implement them quickly. It cannot afford to write off half a million votes, and 20 or 30 seats.

Tories should pledge a vote on being in the EU - Telegraph

I don't believe Cameron will hold a retrospective vote on the RT because their current demand for a referendum is purely political - they do not expect to be in power before the treaty is signed and they have been seen backing further and further away from this since it was first promised.

A referendum on our continued membership of the EU when they come to power makes good since for the reasons already stated.

Millennium3

That is why something big has got to happen at the next GE.

If there is any other choice but trying to get the whole anti EU movement together for a last ditch fight - I would like to hear it.

ukpopdems

UKpopdems have done a fair bt of research on this for our policies.

The facts are these
1. The majority of Britons don't want a Federal, United, single-state Europe
2. The majority of Britons do not want to leave the EU

Our interpretation is that most Britons want to stay in an EU of their own choosing, probably what they thought they originally joined - a friendly, participative Commonwealth of trading nations learning from each other.

The trouble with the anti-EU megawatt brigade is that they see nothing else but GETTING OUT. If they really want that then they'd better have a REALLY good alternative ready to convince most middle-way Brits. Right now, they don't have it.

We are proposing a two stage public vote.
Do you want in or out?

If the result is to stay in, then another vote:
Do you want a United States of Europe?

That would be a far more productive route for UKIP and their ilk to take.

Millennium3

Once the Reform Treaty is in place the game changes completely. Effectively we will be living in another country - trying to undermine this new country could then be construed as treason! Given the EU's record to date - this approach wouldn't surprise me.

Whatever the case, the best choice must be to offer the electorate a retrospective referendum at the next GE if a prior referendum cannot be obtained.