Abolish prisions says former Lib Dem Frontbencher

rjt · 08-08-2007, 11:06 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6935370.stm

Mark Oaten the former Lib Dem Home Affairs spokesman saying what he really thinks.

Mr Oaten was forced to resign in disgrace from the Lib Dem frontbench when it was found that he had lied to and cheated on his wife by indulging in lewd acts with rent boys.

Thank heavens Winchester will have a new MP after the next election.

harryaldridge · 08-08-2007, 11:45 AM

Blogged it here http://vindicovindico.blogspot.com/2...en-eating.html

If ever there was an argument against state funding of parties!!!!! (or in support of birth control!)

Zak64 · 08-08-2007, 12:19 PM

Well he's got a point in some ways. But he's also talking c**p! Which is very unusual for a Liberal Democrat !

I have never seen much point in locking up a single mother on benefits just because she cannot afford a TV licence. Similar thing with junkies, they won't get cured of a smack habit in prison. Quite the opposite in fact. An old mate of mine from Cheltenham is a psychiatric nurse and told me of a case whereby he had to treat an accountant for heroin addiction. This guy had done some fraud or another and got X years for it. He came out of prison with a heroin habit, having never so much as having had even a puff on a joint or popped a pill previously.

But......Prison has got to be there as both a deterent and a punishment. Nothing wrong with with punishing someone when they have done something wrong. Some people are just plain dangerous, and they need looking up for the good of the public. Some of 'em permanently, Myra Hindley, Ronnie & Reggie, Dennis Nielsen, Peter Sutcliffe et al.

I can see why Oaten didn't want to air his views whilst he was still active in politics. I think the sort of climate of "Yah Boo!" politics we have in this country prevents debate, and the public become the losers. Certain policies become shiboleths, and anyone who questions them is immediately subject to a political fatwa. For example any political party advocating leaving the EU might be condemned as extremeists, closet racists, cranks and gadflys.

We are all the loosers for that, and the public are put off any involvement in politics, and even put off voting.

rjt · 08-08-2007, 01:10 PM

Perhaps if he had not commited Fraud he would not have got sent to prision and perhaps if he sadi no to drugs when offered he would no doubt not have a heroin addiction?

Zak64 · 08-08-2007, 02:45 PM

My point exactly. He commited a serious fraud, he deserved a suitable punishment. After a fair trial (I assume) in which the evidence was put before the court, a jury returned it's decision and a judge passed a suitable sentance, in this case incarceration. I don't have a problem with him being punished, and if it's serous enough a crime to justify incarceration - so be it.

The problem with drugs and prison is more complex and deserves a bit more consideration than a naieve Nancy Reaganesque approach of "Just say no!" If we put addicts in prison they will be desperate for supply, and they are obviously getting it. I understand most/all prisons now operate a random drug testing policy. One of Michael Howards little brain childs I believe. The problem with that is that it encourages opiate use! Heroin (opiates generally and cocaine) are water soluble, therefore are undectectable after 48 hours, the kidneys having excreted them. Cannabis is fat soluble and is therefore detectable in the body for about 6 weeks. This encourages heroin use as the chances of it being picked up on a random drug test are so much smaller.

We are sending drug addicts to prison rather than licensing their supply, as the Swiss do. When Switzerland adopted that policy drug related crime fell by 90%. I dunno about you, but I find the idea of a 90% drop in drug related crime quite appealing!

I think Oatens prison proposals are mostly wrong. But he does have a point, in as much that politicians should be addressing these, and other currently taboo issues publicly. Tony Benn made a similar point on his retirement from politics, he said he was now free to say what he really thought.

Right, I'm going to say there is too much immigration into this country - Quick - Somebody call me a racist !

kernow · 08-08-2007, 05:30 PM

What is wrong with putting prisoners who are drug addicts and who finance their habit by robbing other people, in solitary confinement with no access to drugs whatsoever, for as long as it takes doing "Cold Turkey"! They could then be released when they are considered "Clean"! If they re offend then they just spend longer in prison in solitary being accessed!

Zak64 · 08-08-2007, 06:33 PM

What is wrong with licensing drug addicts so they can get their drug supplies legaly, from a chemist or wherever, so they don't have to go out and rob people ?

Kernow, please read my previous post. The Swiss did this and had a 90% drop in drug related crime. Would you like to see a 90% drop in drug related crime?

Or are you happy with the current situation whereby addicts have to steal, rob, shoplift, commit fraud, prostitution or whatever?

Westcountryman · 08-08-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

What is wrong with licensing drug addicts so they can get their drug supplies legaly

The principle of the matter.

Zak64 · 08-08-2007, 07:16 PM

I'd have thought that the principal of at least debating or even implimenting a policy which has seen a 90% drop in drug related crime in one country was very principled.

Or ModernUKIP, are you happy with the current levels of crime in this country?

Kevin Adamson · 08-08-2007, 07:47 PM

We are far too laxed in this contry with regard drug related offences,we need to get this scum off the streets,30 years should do it.

08-08-2007, 11:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,292	Abolish prisions says former Lib Dem Frontbencher http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6935370.stm Mark Oaten the former Lib Dem Home Affairs spokesman saying what he really thinks. Mr Oaten was forced to resign in disgrace from the Lib Dem frontbench when it was found that he had lied to and cheated on his wife by indulging in lewd acts with rent boys. Thank heavens Winchester will have a new MP after the next election.

08-08-2007, 11:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
harryaldridge Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Sussex Posts: 1,912	Blogged it here http://vindicovindico.blogspot.com/2...en-eating.html If ever there was an argument against state funding of parties!!!!! (or in support of birth control!) __________________ http://vindicovindico.blogspot.com

08-08-2007, 12:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Zak64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Poland On Sea (Bournemouth) Posts: 693	Well he's got a point in some ways. But he's also talking c**p! Which is very unusual for a Liberal Democrat ! I have never seen much point in locking up a single mother on benefits just because she cannot afford a TV licence. Similar thing with junkies, they won't get cured of a smack habit in prison. Quite the opposite in fact. An old mate of mine from Cheltenham is a psychiatric nurse and told me of a case whereby he had to treat an accountant for heroin addiction. This guy had done some fraud or another and got X years for it. He came out of prison with a heroin habit, having never so much as having had even a puff on a joint or popped a pill previously. But......Prison has got to be there as both a deterent and a punishment. Nothing wrong with with punishing someone when they have done something wrong. Some people are just plain dangerous, and they need looking up for the good of the public. Some of 'em permanently, Myra Hindley, Ronnie & Reggie, Dennis Nielsen, Peter Sutcliffe et al. I can see why Oaten didn't want to air his views whilst he was still active in politics. I think the sort of climate of "Yah Boo!" politics we have in this country prevents debate, and the public become the losers. Certain policies become shiboleths, and anyone who questions them is immediately subject to a political fatwa. For example any political party advocating leaving the EU might be condemned as extremeists, closet racists, cranks and gadflys. We are all the loosers for that, and the public are put off any involvement in politics, and even put off voting. __________________ If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

08-08-2007, 02:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
Zak64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Poland On Sea (Bournemouth) Posts: 693	My point exactly. He commited a serious fraud, he deserved a suitable punishment. After a fair trial (I assume) in which the evidence was put before the court, a jury returned it's decision and a judge passed a suitable sentance, in this case incarceration. I don't have a problem with him being punished, and if it's serous enough a crime to justify incarceration - so be it. The problem with drugs and prison is more complex and deserves a bit more consideration than a naieve Nancy Reaganesque approach of "Just say no!" If we put addicts in prison they will be desperate for supply, and they are obviously getting it. I understand most/all prisons now operate a random drug testing policy. One of Michael Howards little brain childs I believe. The problem with that is that it encourages opiate use! Heroin (opiates generally and cocaine) are water soluble, therefore are undectectable after 48 hours, the kidneys having excreted them. Cannabis is fat soluble and is therefore detectable in the body for about 6 weeks. This encourages heroin use as the chances of it being picked up on a random drug test are so much smaller. We are sending drug addicts to prison rather than licensing their supply, as the Swiss do. When Switzerland adopted that policy drug related crime fell by 90%. I dunno about you, but I find the idea of a 90% drop in drug related crime quite appealing! I think Oatens prison proposals are mostly wrong. But he does have a point, in as much that politicians should be addressing these, and other currently taboo issues publicly. Tony Benn made a similar point on his retirement from politics, he said he was now free to say what he really thought. Right, I'm going to say there is too much immigration into this country - Quick - Somebody call me a racist ! __________________ If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture! Last edited by Zak64; 08-08-2007 at 02:56 PM.

08-08-2007, 06:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
Zak64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Poland On Sea (Bournemouth) Posts: 693	What is wrong with licensing drug addicts so they can get their drug supplies legaly, from a chemist or wherever, so they don't have to go out and rob people ? Kernow, please read my previous post. The Swiss did this and had a 90% drop in drug related crime. Would you like to see a 90% drop in drug related crime? Or are you happy with the current situation whereby addicts have to steal, rob, shoplift, commit fraud, prostitution or whatever? __________________ If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

08-08-2007, 01:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,292	Perhaps if he had not commited Fraud he would not have got sent to prision and perhaps if he sadi no to drugs when offered he would no doubt not have a heroin addiction?

08-08-2007, 05:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 4,997	What is wrong with putting prisoners who are drug addicts and who finance their habit by robbing other people, in solitary confinement with no access to drugs whatsoever, for as long as it takes doing "Cold Turkey"! They could then be released when they are considered "Clean"! If they re offend then they just spend longer in prison in solitary being accessed!

08-08-2007, 07:16 PM	#9 (permalink)
Zak64 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Poland On Sea (Bournemouth) Posts: 693	I'd have thought that the principal of at least debating or even implimenting a policy which has seen a 90% drop in drug related crime in one country was very principled. Or ModernUKIP, are you happy with the current levels of crime in this country? __________________ If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

08-08-2007, 07:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kevin Adamson Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey Posts: 861 Party: UKIP	We are far too laxed in this contry with regard drug related offences,we need to get this scum off the streets,30 years should do it.

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