Hi

Richard Allen · 11-06-2006, 06:08 PM

After seven years as a member (and longer as a supporter) of the Conservative party I finally quit in march this year in total despair with the party. Upto the point of Cameron's election as leader I had always (foolishly) believed there was a chance that the tories could be dragged back to the cause of national sovereignty and that euro-sceptics could best fight their cause inside the party. After leaving the tory party I spent a while contemplating whether or not to join UKIP and decided to just over a month ago.

andypandy · 11-06-2006, 07:01 PM

Welcome to the forum, but I would have thought it obvious that the Conservatives NEVER had any intention of backing the cause of national sovereignty, and only used the language of intent, when they thought it would get them votes from parties that have ALWAYS believed in leaving the Common Market/EEC/EU.

Unfortunately, you belonged to a party that has done more to embroil the UK in European affairs than any other movement, so, to wait until someone like Cameron gets in charge is a poor excuse to leave on the grounds of loss of national freedom.

I am sure that UKIP will welcome you, though.

Britannist · 11-06-2006, 07:52 PM

Welcome to the forum Richard

.

Richard Allen · 11-06-2006, 08:10 PM

andypandy

While some in the Conservative party care nothing for national sovereignty many care a great about it (Unfortunately they are not in positions of power). While I am all too aware of the damge that the Conservative party has done in terms of taking us deeper into Europe I do not believe that I was unreasonable in thinking that the party could slowly be pushed into a more and more eurosceptic position and I certainly don't think it was more unreasonable than the belief that UKIP could have elected a substantial number of MP's at last years general election.

Futhermore I am not using "loss of national freedom" as an excuse. I simply think that David Cameron's election as leader reduces the chances of the tories ever taking a truly anti-EU position to such a level that it is no longer worth fighting for.

Finally I find your attitude rather counter productive. There are thousands of tory members and millions of tory voters who still believe that their euroscepticism is best served by the tory party. These people form a large part of UKIP's target audiance. Lecturing them over their past affiliations doesn't strike me as a good idea (the same with former labour voters).

Britannist

Thanks

adrianwainer · 11-06-2006, 08:31 PM

Hi Richard

Quote:

Fine Gael's Martin Conway, who raised the motion at Clare county council, warned that Shannon's international standing was at risk. "I would prefer to see US troops not use Shannon at all," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1691805,00.html

Quote:

......former Fine Gael prime minister John Bruton has attacked the “European war leaders—Blair and Aznar” for breaching the Maastricht Treaty that had called for a common EU security policy. Bruton warned that sooner or later Europe would be forced to build such a policy. Another former prime minister, Garret Fitzgerald, has insisted that postwar Iraq must be handed over to the UN, a call the Bush administration has made clear it has no time for.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/ire-a03.shtml

http://www.reichslieder.com/reichsli...osters_51.html
I presume that is sort of thing former Fine Gael "Fuhrer" John Bruton and now EU Ambassador to the Unites States has in mind when he calls for "a common EU security policy".

Quote:

the Maastricht Treaty that had called for a common EU security policy. Bruton warned that sooner or later Europe would be forced to build such a policy.

And by contrast here is a comment by a member of one of the two partys in Government in Ireland

Quote:

While we are a small country we have a distinct voice in the world and have taken a position of leadership in areas like human rights, conflict resolution and peacekeeping. To close Shannon airport, or indeed Irish airspace, to United States military flights would do little to help the human rights of ordinary Iraqi citizens. Would do little to resolve conflict and bring peace to that far-off land. In effect, it would be an abdication of the role we have played these last fifty years, a role that has seen us give assistance to whoever has desired it, regardless of colour or creed. If we close Shannon now to US military flights, the only people it will assist are those seeking to bring down the present Iraqi government and those involved in international terrorism.

http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/press_room/1603/

No wonder David Cameron is so reluctant to leave the EPP ( European People's Party ) after all the mad for the EU "Irish" party Fine Gael are in it and Enda Kenny the Fine Gael "Fuhrer" is deputy leader of the EPP , Fine Gael is popularly known in Ireland as "The Blueshirts" for their support for Fascism in the 1930s in which they had an organization something on the lines of Oswald Mosley's "Blackshirts".

http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/oduffyarticle.html

http://www.finegael.ie/splash.cfm?CF...TOKEN=66749925

http://www.finegael.ie/downloads/europeaninside.pdf

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

PS I could not find a reference on the net to Fine Gael's policys of baning all US military aircraft from Republic of Ireland Airports and even prohibiting the landing in Ireland of US civilian airliners if they are carrying US military personel as passengers but I can assure you they are official Fine Gael policy.

Bluemerle · 19-06-2006, 03:29 PM

Richard, as an ex member of the Tory party, welcome. The problem I have when talking to my friends who are still clinging to the Tory raft is convincing them, that by voting for Cameron and his ilk, even though they do not agree with what they are doing, they are giving respectability to that cause, and the only way is a clean break and vote for policies they approve.

Unfortunately, they keep on voting for anything that wears a blue rosette, still hoping against all odds, that the Tory Leaders will somehow have a damascene conversion. :roll: What Cameron & Co need is a cultural shock, provided by the members.

harryaldridge · 19-06-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Allen

After seven years as a member (and longer as a supporter) of the Conservative party I finally quit in march this year in total despair with the party. Upto the point of Cameron's election as leader I had always (foolishly) believed there was a chance that the tories could be dragged back to the cause of national sovereignty and that euro-sceptics could best fight their cause inside the party. After leaving the tory party I spent a while contemplating whether or not to join UKIP and decided to just over a month ago.

Welcome to UKIP Richard. I hope you are able to convince you fellow eurosceptic friends and colleagues that the only way a true eurosceptic can vote is UKIP. Cameron has firmly closed the eurosceptic door in the conservative party so let's not waste time believeing it is still possible to influence form the inside.

Well done Richard, i look forward to many more defections.

11-06-2006, 06:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
Richard Allen Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 569	Hi After seven years as a member (and longer as a supporter) of the Conservative party I finally quit in march this year in total despair with the party. Upto the point of Cameron's election as leader I had always (foolishly) believed there was a chance that the tories could be dragged back to the cause of national sovereignty and that euro-sceptics could best fight their cause inside the party. After leaving the tory party I spent a while contemplating whether or not to join UKIP and decided to just over a month ago.

11-06-2006, 07:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Welcome Welcome to the forum Richard .

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11-06-2006, 07:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
andypandy Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 880	Welcome to the forum, but I would have thought it obvious that the Conservatives NEVER had any intention of backing the cause of national sovereignty, and only used the language of intent, when they thought it would get them votes from parties that have ALWAYS believed in leaving the Common Market/EEC/EU. Unfortunately, you belonged to a party that has done more to embroil the UK in European affairs than any other movement, so, to wait until someone like Cameron gets in charge is a poor excuse to leave on the grounds of loss of national freedom. I am sure that UKIP will welcome you, though.

11-06-2006, 08:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
Richard Allen Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 569	andypandy While some in the Conservative party care nothing for national sovereignty many care a great about it (Unfortunately they are not in positions of power). While I am all too aware of the damge that the Conservative party has done in terms of taking us deeper into Europe I do not believe that I was unreasonable in thinking that the party could slowly be pushed into a more and more eurosceptic position and I certainly don't think it was more unreasonable than the belief that UKIP could have elected a substantial number of MP's at last years general election. Futhermore I am not using "loss of national freedom" as an excuse. I simply think that David Cameron's election as leader reduces the chances of the tories ever taking a truly anti-EU position to such a level that it is no longer worth fighting for. Finally I find your attitude rather counter productive. There are thousands of tory members and millions of tory voters who still believe that their euroscepticism is best served by the tory party. These people form a large part of UKIP's target audiance. Lecturing them over their past affiliations doesn't strike me as a good idea (the same with former labour voters). Britannist Thanks

19-06-2006, 03:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bluemerle Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dorset. Posts: 3,252	Richard, as an ex member of the Tory party, welcome. The problem I have when talking to my friends who are still clinging to the Tory raft is convincing them, that by voting for Cameron and his ilk, even though they do not agree with what they are doing, they are giving respectability to that cause, and the only way is a clean break and vote for policies they approve. Unfortunately, they keep on voting for anything that wears a blue rosette, still hoping against all odds, that the Tory Leaders will somehow have a damascene conversion. :roll: What Cameron & Co need is a cultural shock, provided by the members.