Teebs

Hi,

I'm a member of the Liberal Democrat party and I was interested in learning about UKIP and other Europsceptic parties. Both why you're all so against the EU and what other policies you have.

mkpdavies

Welcome,

You have come to the right place!

Please could you post why the Lib -Dems believe Britain is not capabale of making it's own laws and running itslef, and why we can't just have a free trade agreement with other countries, and work with those other countries when it is of benefit to call.

I am interested in the view that we need to create a superblock to counteract other superblocks, and that centralisation of power INTO phpbb_a unelected bodies hands is the way to go.

Please also tell us how Britain is better off in anyway thanks to the EU, but be careful not to quote things we could have done ourself anyway.

Thanks!!!!

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Teebs

I've got the feeling arguing over Europe could be just a leetle bit pointless... You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. But...

The Liberal Democrats do believe Britain is capable of making its own laws, as does every other party. A belief that there is nothing wrong with the EU making laws has nothing to do with Britain's own abilities.

If you actually looked at Lib Dem policies you'd see that we support making the EU more democratically accountable than it currently is. The argument for creating superblocs is that when there is only one, it leads to that bloc having far too much power over others, if there are two or more then they balance each other out.

Britain is better off in the EU for numerous reasons. The economic boost that we get from it, while having a say in the making of laws within it. In order to trade with the EU countries outside it such as Switzerland still have to follow most of its rules and still have to pay contributions to it, the difference is that they don't get any say in the workings of the EU or any benefits from such things as the solidarity fund. Membership of the EU boosts a country's influence worldwide, both economically and politically. It's all very well to talk about Britain being able to do things on its own, but if Britain wouldn't have done them on its own then it's pointless saying that it could have.

mkpdavies

Oh no debate is never pointless. I am ready to be convinced by a sound argument!

The bottom line though, is the EU makes laws that trump ours. Hence we are taking away the decisions from our own elected representatives and giving it to others who we have no says over. Shouldn't the reform be done first before we do that!

Oh I know what you guys say, it's the reality that I am more interested in. How do you think our tiny voice in amongst all the others will have much sway at all? It's like a small tail trying to wag the dog!

Like the Soviet Union you mean? Couldn;t that lead to another cold war that will end in disater this time? Why chose the EU, rather than the USA, or an anglosphere? Why not strengthen the commonweath instead? Why not get together with other countries via WTO, UN etc, rather than form a full on merger?

What economic boost? How does that work? Wouldn't free trade with the whole world be better than creating a protectionist block?
So should we join China too seeing as we trade a lot with them? Switzerland is one of the better off countries in the world now, they couldn't care less about having much of a say in EU rules! They have their own! They pay a fraction of what we have to, to access the trade club which is what we thought we had signed up to! Again we are paying a lot of money to have a tiny say and loose a lot of controls over our own economy. The fact that the EU accounts for only 10% of our economy makes this all the more strange!


Your going to have to give me some examples here. All I know is Britain has had a profound infulence on the world up until now. We have a major seats in the UN, WTO, G8. We have the ear of every nation on the planet. We can join the EU on issues when we want to, why tie ourselves in so that we have to go with what they say when we don't agree?

Name me one thing Britain could not have done without the EU!

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Nic

We could never have got away with destroying our fishermen's jobs or making selling goods in ounces a criminal offence if our government didn't have the EU to hide behind. But I don't think you quite meant that!!

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B.A.Ware

Well its good to see you’re not blind to some of the effects the EU have over our country

Teebs

When you talk about reform being done first, you're using a red herring, UKIP and other Eurosceptic parties have no interest in reform, they just want out.

I assume you mean within the EU there, if Britain decided to throw its weight behind reform in the EU then it would be hard to stop. Britain has the second largest economy in the EU and equal second largest population, if it chooses to it can easily wield as much weight as France or Germany withing the EU.

There's no reason for more than one superpower leading toa cold war, all it means is that it's harder for a superpower to pursue its own interests at the cost of the interests of other nations.

The difference between the EU and the USA is that with the EU we actually have a large influence over what goes on within it. The commonwealth is not a viable bloc unlike the EU, for example only a small proportion of our trade is with commonwealth nations. The problem with loose ties is that they don't provide boosts in strength through unity.

The economic boost from lack of tariffs between EU nations. The economic boost from EU citizens being able to work where their labour is most needed. The economic boost we'd get from joining the Euro. Whether or not free trade with the whole world would be a better idea than political and economic unity is a different question.

We don't trade with China anywhere near as much as we do with EU nations, China does not share our values of liberal democracy e.t.c. The fact is that if Switzerland wants to sell things to EU countries it has to follow EU rules on those things, so its own rules are irrelevant.

Britain's profound influence on the world... Unfortuately Britain is no longer a world superpower. As we all know the UN security council veto is close to meaningless. The WTO and G8 are both based around economic power and while Britain is economically powerful, it's not even close to America or even Japan. Anyone who really believes Britain still has a major say in world affairs is deluding themselves, unfortunately Britain alone is just too small.

You're ignoring my point here. There is very little that Britain couldn't have done without the EU, the point is that it wouldn't have done them without the EU.

mkpdavies

We certainly do want out, no redherring required. What I am trying to work out here is why you want in at any cost!

You are sadly deluded if you think our lone voice will have a huge sway in this monolith. If the rest of continental europe say one thing, it is very difficult for our one voice to be heard, no matter how well placed in the rankings we are. Why even put ourselves at this risk, when the benefits for doing so are so weak anyway?


It's a posability though. Already there are many areas where the USA and EU are clashing, I don't see that getting any better. As I said before though, why tie ourselves INTO phpbb_this ridgid structure where we have to go with the EU's will all the time, when there are plent of opportunities to gang up in the WTO, UN etc, only on our own terms. Surley it is better that we can choose which side to take, depending on the argument. As I said before becoming evil to fight evil makes no sense at all.

Weak, very weak. There is no reason why Britain shouldn't form a differnet block with anyone else, you are making plenty of assumptions and not backing it with facts. The commonwealth could become as united or loose as we wanted it, the USA is already a much better, fully functioning Union than the USE will ever be. They would welcome Britain in as an equal parter, just as any other of the states. I really wouldn't want that, but the bottom line is it would be better than joining the farce that is the EU.

Why do we need to politicaly merge to have free tarrifs? Why can't we allow a reasonable mamount of free movement of people? As for the Euro, I can only assume you are joking, as all the evidence shows that the Eurozone countries are being held back, by being tied to a currency that they have no control over. Britain can tune it's rates at will, hence it is performing better than ANY eurozone economy.
Free trade with the whole world is not another question, it is the first thing we should be trying to do, rather than creating a protectionist block!

Britain still has more voice than most nations on this planet. The great thing is it is OUR voice, not some forced allegience to a fake union. There are plenty of countries in the world who get on happily without having to shout their mouths off in the world anyway, what good is having a big voice if it isn't saying what you believe. That is what we have with the EU. All the EU will do and is already doing, is antagonise the USA. The jealousy and thirst for power is nauseating.

Weak. So it comes down to the fact that you think the EU knows better and Britain needs to be lead to get things done. You might want to be a sheep, I don't!

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Teebs

I'd like to keep arguing, but I really don't have time anymore. I've just been elected as the Member of Youth Parliament for Central Norfolk (Norwich) and that is going to be a large demand on my time. It was nice talking to all of you.

Exorcist

............and some fell on stony ground