The Bear

The EU has access to raw materials that we don’t and markets that we would loose. In addition the Euro is rapidly becoming an alternative “currency of choice” before the now failing US dollar, a thing that will for boost the EU economy no end.

The EU is in a totally different situation from the US and from Britain. On our own we are finished. Third world, or worse since we don’t have the climate and we have far too many mouths to feed. As part of the United States of Europe we have the strength and support that comes from being part of a federation of states.

Principles are fine, but pragmatism fills bellies.

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I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

British-Conservatism

Leaving the EU would not lose us any markets.

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British-Conservatism

Britain per capita is richer than the EU a figure that will grow more infavour as the rest of Eastern Europe and Turkey joins the EU.
The North Africa and Middle East will be next before the EU sinks into a third world Islamic state.

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The Bear

NO WE ARE NOT!

Our GDP is based on DEBT!

Our so called "economic miracle" was actually an economic MIRAGE as is now becoming clear.

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The Bear

You don't factor in the nations who would not WANT or be ABLE to deal with us due to financing agreements and other ties, some political, with the EU.

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Ea of Dune

There is absolutly no reason for China to want to bring the us to it's knees, this scenario is completly unlikely. If China attempted something as silly as that it would destroy it's own economy, an economy that is built on export, but also on investment. There is no way that after the decades to the Communist clique in China have spent building up the economy they would risk loosing grip on the country and potentially sparking civil unrest.
It's a silly idea and smacks of the whole "The Japs own our country" US scenario of the 1980's.

Once again, the fact they are partially owned or whatever makes very little difference. These companies are bought and sold by shareholders across the world. Companies rarely work in a "nationalist" context at any rate, so where they have their HQ and who the shareholders are has very little impact with regards to bringing a country to it's knees or other such nonsense.
If a coal giant in say France for example was controlled by, let's say the Chinese, and the Chinese decided to try and bring France to it's knees, what do you think the French would do (and don't say surrender )? They'd probably nationalise the coal and take control of the production.

Comments like this are total nonsense. Bear you can't look into the future and predict what British exports will be like in 50 years time. The speed technology and such moves at, a British company could patent an item next week and be the sole supplier of this to the world. If this where something like a new energy source, or medical breakthrough exports could be boosted massively.
To say "never again" is rubbish, look at our history and follow the progress of industries that have risen and fallen over the past 2000 years and you will see what I mean.
What we need to do as a country is not stagnate, but push forward with innovation and research.

Agreed the US economy to some extent is driven by the need for cheap gasoline. However the US economy will adapt to the changes in the market just as every economy has too over time.

I can't see how Britain needs Romainia and Bulgaria hanging from it's coat tails rather then other way round somehow. We have massive financial centres in London and Edinburgh for example. The EU drains this country and coupled with the Labour government has caused a brain drain to other countries such as the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. However this would be reversed in my opinion if Britain pulled out of the EU and made the necessary tax cuts.

Our trade wouldn't suffer either, do you honestly think French wine farmers would roll over and say "oh OK we won't sell wine to the English anymore and lose one of our biggest markets"? I doubt it, not after the unrest last year over foreign wine imports that saw wine producers in the Languedoc shoot a lorry driver.

My personal biggest concern is the way trasnational super-corps are buying up smaller markets, knocking out competition and using the WTO to pass laws that favour them and trap people into markets.

It won't be countries in the future you need to worry about, but Transnational corporation that control vast amounts of wealth and land and have a very poor ethic towards their workers and customers.

Ea of dune

British-Conservatism

So how will that mean we will lose trade with the EU again?

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British-Conservatism

As is the EU GDP a growing debt at that.

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The Bear

Not such a silly idea. China is increasingly turning to the outside world for supplies that include food. If the US gets in the way, or if the U S threatens strategic supplies, especially energy supplies, then the confrontation could be fought on the balance sheets far more effectively than on the battle field, and at a lower total cost in terms of money, materials, and men.

Quote:
When the number of key and even strategic US businesses that are now either owned, partially owned, or financed by foreign backers are considered the picture gets even worse for the US.

Once again, the fact they are partially owned or whatever makes very little difference. These companies are bought and sold by shareholders across the world.

Companies rarely work in a "nationalist" context at any rate, so where they have their HQ and who the shareholders are has very little impact with regards to bringing a country to it's knees or other such nonsense.

If a coal giant in say France for example was controlled by, let's say the Chinese, and the Chinese decided to try and bring France to it's knees, what do you think the French would do (and don't say surrender )? They'd probably nationalise the coal and take control of the production.[/quote]

That’s very true but if the hypothetical coal pits was not IN France but actually overseas the France would not be able to effectively nationalise them, especially if the country in which it WAS situated saw it not in its interest to get the wrong side of the Chinese.

Then there’s all the dollars held by states in the Middle East to consider. Take as an example the amount of clout that the middle eastern shareholders in Citibank now has over all businesses operating on loans from Citibank.

That’s like a business plan with an entry showing the arival of little green men in their fling saucer as the key deliverable into a PERT net.

Not only that but the export market would need to run at around £200 billion pounds a year from day 1 and for a single producer and in the absence of something that eats **** and ****** petrol that ain’t gonna happen.

We’ve not got the means or the incentives or the market access on our own. Nor will we have. For a classic example of how industry really works look no further than Dyson.

Not just cheap gasoline. Natural gas and oil at almost any price. It's the need for the derivatives that are the issue. Oil for the synthesis of fertilisers, for plastics, for pharmaceuticals, for running its power plants, for it’s agricultural machinery and technology, for its transport infrastructure, in fact for the whole nine yards.

Without oil they would need to revert to slaves and there might just be a problem in that.

We can’t afford to make tax cuts without the corresponding cuts in the provision of “benefits” causing civil unrest. The government that follows this dreadful disastrous lot of incompetent fools and charlatans are going to have a very narrow path to walk as they do what is going to have to be done to redress the damage that has been done.

It’s not what we need to buy that’s the problem, it’s where we can sell the miniscule number of things that are not available cheaper from elsewhere to have the wherewithall to BUY the goods we need to import.

I do agree, but that’s not a thing that can be changed. That’s business. Though the swing in where the money now lies may well deliver a substantial change to that pattern pretty soon. There’s a whole lot more to the so called credit squeeze than is being admitted to.

I’m inclined to agree. That’s where we need to make damm sure that we are not out in the cold and being exploited as a third world country, because on our own that’s exactly the position that we will find ourselves in.

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British-Conservatism

Public Debt is 43.3% of our GDP thats less than Italy, Hungary, Greece, Belgium, Turkey, Portugal, Germany Austria, Netherlands, Croatia and Poland.

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