George

That's what I said and that's what is demonstrated by the situation on the ground.

"...a large number..."

What poll?

What poll?

The Kurds would be quite happy to have an autonomous or independent state in the north of Iraq. It won't happen because the Turks are against it. There has been a de facto Kurdish state since 2002. The Sunni and Shi'ite are religious groups, not ethnic or tribal groups. Suggesting they could withdraw to different areas and live in harmony is like suggesting that protestant Irish get the north, catholics get the south and everyone will be happy.

Or far more likely they would be flooded by insurgents from all directions, Saudi, Pakistan, Jordan, Iran, Afghanistan, even the UK.

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Hartlepool

George,to be polite,you have been evasive on this post.

You made a statement indicating "a large number" where did this "large number" you speak of come from?

Have you proof or a link on this statement that so many Iraqis want FIG?

If you quote "numbers,quantities" you should be able to support it with a link or some proof,that's all I'm saying,proof.

crac

I can understand that the Iraqi's are none to pleased with American combat boots all over their sacred soil but really they have to stop the willful and stupid destroyers of their own country by narrow minded religious extremism.

You can't call the west narrow minded religious and extreme in that way because there is a place where you can live happily and safely and practice whatever faith you choose, as long as you don't use that as an excuse to torture and murder your neigbours.

Why hasn't the water and electricity been fixed ???? Probably terror tactics on anyone trying to fix it and corruption and incompetance. The money to do the work has been available, there is money from selling oil if they would let it happen but they don't seem able to do even that.

They seem to be the kind of person whop can change their allegiences from week to week. EG; This month i'm murdering for this faction and next month i'm stealing for that faction and the month after i'll be working for the government and maybe i'll get to star in a BBC documentary.

Such a facinating people and culture, but i think the American and British should threaten them with no more money and lives at risk for them unless they grow up and move on from their harsh struggles under violent oppressors and stand up and make a go of becomeing a successful modern country, which they could do.

George

Obviously I cannot give you a number, are you expecting me to say 14,522,086 Iraqis want a fundamentalist islamic government? However, take into account the effectiveness of the IRA and the frequency of their attacks. Consider the effectiveness of the French resistance. Think about the numbers who supported each cause. It is impossible for such a lengthy and large scale insurgency to operate effectively without considerable support from the civilian population. I don't need to count the raindrops to know I am getting wet.

Watching the news.

The history of Iraq over the last four years makes it fairly obvious.

.

The proof is the situation on the ground. Does anyone at all think for a second that were the troops to leave now there would be anything other than a bloody civil war? Given that around 65% of Iraqis are Shia compared with around 20% Sunni and 15% Kurds and given that the Shia are heavily supported by Iran, it doesn't take much to work out what kind of government there would be following a civil war.

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The Bear

I see the situation in a rather simple light.

Rightly or wrongly the US invaded Iraq and got rid of a piece of filth who may or may not have been the right guy to run the grot-hole that was Iraq.

The US together with Britain and a few others did their best to install a system that would have allowed the Iraqi people to move from the archaic oppressive regime that they lived under to a society that even with all it’s faults was a million times more progressive and overall much better than what they had.

They have shown it is not what the majority of them want.

So sod them

Leave them to sort out whatever rotten system, be it a theocracy, a dictatorship, a soviet, or whatever they want.

They had their chance to better themselves, they blew it, let them now live with the consequences.

mattyr2k8

we shouldve never gone in in the first place, the same politicians who sent our soldiers in to "give the iraqis democracy" are the ones giving away our democracy to eurocrats in brussels, and "iraq might maybe be supporting terrorism" isnt an excuse simply because the tiny amount of attempted terrorism is because of our aggressive foreign policy, which has killed 950k (250k in 1991, 600k in sanctions, 100k in the war) iraqis, and im sure less than maybe 10 of them would have ever posed a threat to the west.

The Bear

The the 250 k who died in the '921 war and the 600k who died as a result of the sanctions are the absolute responisibility of Saddam.

crac

I don't think that the west should be held to the standard of people who routinely murder and torture their own breathren.

They are each and everyone personally responsible.

I'm sick of this murderous scum.

Let them rot in the cess pit they have made for themselves.

Let the figures speak for themselves. How many Iraqi's murdered and tortured by Iraqi's as compared to how many murdered and tortured by Americans or British troops. Never mind relative morality let the figures show the difference in the morality of the so called 'Western enemy'.

The real enemy is the Iraqi people on them selves as the figures prove.

crac

It must have been something i ate,
That made me sick.

What i remember from many bleeding heart liberals and probably fellow travelers of several despotic regimes was the oft repeated thundering judgement that the war in Iraq represented the abbyss into which the moral legitimacy of the West would sink and be lost for ever.

Well it hasn't happened, so i'd like to take the opportunity of having a good laugh on their expense .

Good, i enjoyed that.

It certainly is a nasty business the conflict in Iraq but i think i was right that the Iraqi's need to be pushed to take responsibility for their own country. Why for example are they unable to prevent and take control of the situation of criminals and murderers from other countries infiltrating their borders.

The Bear

The problem is of course that there IS no single Iraq.

There is only one solution and that is let the sods fighhht it out for themselves but the problem is that as the coalition go out the front door the Iranians and the Syrians would come in through the back.

I’m increasingly seeing parallels with the Vietnam era here. Not the US going to get a blo*odied nose (though it is doing at present) but the REAL war being the war against an ideology being fought in other peoples countries. In the past the ideology was communism. This time it’s Islam.

For my part I would much rather deal with communism as even if the communists did win eventually it would peter out and capitalism would creep back in, it’s human nature.

Not so with islam. If THAT ideology gets the upper hand then the world is in very serious trouble indeed.