22ANDUK

What is your view on the status of Tibet? What stance should UKIP and Britain take on the issue?

Are you pro-Tibetan independence, or do you believe China has a right to the lands, and that Tibet is merely a province of the PRC?

What will happen when the 14th Dalai Lama dies?

And does the plight of the suppressed Tibetan people look ever more bleak as China's rapid surge in economic, military and political strength increases?

China has been resorting to underhand techniques to suppress the Tibetan people, such as importing thousands of ethnic Han Chinese as workers and then paying them sizeable monies to settle in the region. The Chinese government has also allowed more Tibetan Buddhist monks to worship and live in Beiijing - and have actively allowed and encouraged to roam the streets during the Olympics - to massage Western opinion when the influx of tourists and journalists arrive for the Games.

I wouldpersonally love there to be a free and independent Tibet, governed as a constitutional monarchy style sytstem (much like our own) with the Dalai Lama as a cermonial and spiritual head, and an democratically elected Prime Minister and Parliament.

The native British and Tibetans should build and share a bond - hopefully we can work closely together when we are both free from the yoke of the European Union and People's Republic of China respectively.

Some interesting links:

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Fathoming Tibet's political future
BBC NEWS | In Depth
Free Tibet Campaign - Chinese occupation of Tibet | Tibetans' human rights
Tibetan Government in Exile's Official Web Site

ranter

[quote=22ANDUK;476052]What is your view on the status of Tibet? What stance should UKIP and Britain take on the issue?

Are you pro-Tibetan independence, or do you believe China has a right to the lands, and that Tibet is merely a province of the PRC?


There are many provinces within China resisting communist secularism



What will happen when the 14th Dalai Lama dies?



There will be a 15th





And does the plight of the suppressed Tibetan people look ever more bleak as China's rapid surge in economic, military and political strength increases?


As they develope I hope they go the same way as past communist states and break up into smaller self governing countries.I fear there will be a lot of tears before that day arrives

Millennium3

I believe the Tibetans should regain their independence and that UKIP should declare war on China and marshal all of its forces accordingly - battle cry, for Tibet, Nigel and the Dalai Lama.

Please sign below if you are a UKIP member and are willing to sacrifice your life in this hopeless but necessary cause.

Westcountryman

Is this really any of our business?

Leave interference in other nation's affairs to those who botch it best - the Americans.

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tito

HAHA!

UKIP vs China!

That would be an interesting one.

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Hartlepool

Don't underestimate UKIP,we are afraid of nobody,as you know I expect.

Olympic Flame

Besides the "free Tibet" slogan and wearing a "free Tibet" T shirt as a symbol of moral supremacy there are easily observable inconvenient truth in the Tibet situation.

The previous regime under Dalai Lama's associates was based on Tibetan feudalism, a rigid and opprssive system of class supression of the slaves rather than a spiritual world of shangri la.

Chinese communist partcipation in the overthrowning of the Tibetan feudalism was supported by the mass lower class as opposed to their divinely chosen leaders.

Tibetan HDI index rose tremendously for the past decades, including a sharp drop in infant mortality, increase in literacy rates, increase in the standard of living, market access to inland provinces facilitated by railways to the landlocked high plateau. GDP Infant mortality has dropped from 43% in 1950 to 0.661% in 2000, life expectancy has risen from 35.5 years in 1950 to 67 in 2000.

Dalai Lama was no saint in his argument for Tibetan's ethnic purity against the non-tibetan immigrants, considering the fact that there exists no means, either from democracy or communism, to stop internal migration of people within a nation other than a rigorous segregation policy of the pre-60s America.

The Pro-Tibet independence movement within the western society was a relatively "recent" emotional entanglement considering that none of them voiced opposition to the sovereignty in the 40s and 50s. Treaties signed by Britain and Russia in the early years of the twentieth century and others signed by Nepal and India in the 1950s , recognized Tibet's political subordination to China. The Americans presented their view on 15 May 1943:
“ For its part, the Government of the United States has borne in mind the fact that...the Chinese constitution lists Tibet among areas constituting the territory of the Republic of China. This Government has at no time raised a question regarding either of these claims".

"Free Tibet", like all other bargaining chips from the free world against the rest, lies in interest of realpolitk against "communist countries" such as Russia and China. The Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly voted to condemn the "crimes of totalitarian communist regimes", linking them with Nazism. It would be easier to take the Council of Europe's condemnation of communist state crimes seriously if it had also seen fit to denounce the far bloodier record of European colonialism - which only finally came to an end in the 1970s. This was a system of racist despotism and economic exploitation which dominated the globe in Stalin's time.

Last but not least, ironicaly the so called oversea "free tibet" Tibetans, who claim the rising China as an imminient danger to the cultural heritage of Tibetans, speak fluent English but barely Tibentan, protest in casual wear of the latest design of American Newyorker fashion and staging "Tibetan beauty contest"-A great taboo to the conservative elements of native Tibetan Culture. Singing songs of Universalism of American globalist popular culture which posts the greatest threat to any surviving native culture, our "Tibetan" advocates have been competing to see who can express the shrillest and most spine-tingling fears about the Chinese beast looming on the Eastern horizon.

g hall

[quote=ranter;476101]Always thought he was reincarnated

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Zak64

Olympic Flame wrote:

Having read several book on Tibet, and others by Tibetans who lived through the illegal and continuing Chinese occupation of their country, I would have to suggest your assertion is wrong. Yes Tibet was feudal, as were/are many countries. The regime was not oppressive though, nothing I have read supports that. Granted, there is probably a tendancy by some to romanticise pre-invasion Tibet.

Again, not one piece of eyewitness evidence I have ever read supports this. Some , Tibetans,fficials/governors and the like, did sell out and support the Chinese, treason is not confined to any one race or culture. Other Tibetans, notably the nomadic horsemen of Amdo fought to the last man against the Chinese. The Chinese invasion and occupation has never had widespread popular support. There have been periodic uprising against Chinese rule.

That is nothing that could not of happened, or would not of happened without China's brutal occupation and oppression. Does such an increase in living standards justify genocide, oppression, the killing of about 20% of Tibet's population, and the destruction of an ancient culture? It is possible to have progress without socialism, despite what some would tell you.

There are doubtless many countries that recorded a similar or better performance in the same timespan.

The Dali Lam was no saint! Compared to whom exactly? The saintly Chairman Mao perhaps!?

You assume that China and Tibet are the same nation. I find your comparison to pre 1960s USA segregation laws unrealistic on several levels. USA segregation laws never, as far as I am aware, prevented black people from moving about in the USA. Due to democratic common law, principles of free speech, and a (broadly) free press Martin Luther King was able to achieve what he did. How come you have have never heard of the Tibetan equivalent of Martin Luther King?


Historically just plain wrong! In 1950 the Indians recognised the Chinese Communist government, but in the same statement urged that the Chinese government show restraint towards the people of Tibet. The Chinese promised to respect those wishes! Further, the Tibetans themselves urged action from the UN to halt the Chinese agression against them. Unfortunately the world's attention was focused on Korea, and only San Salvadore, (bizarrely enough) supported them.

Another irrelevant point. China had not invaded, or even (as far as I am aware) even threatened Tibet at that time. Further, the world had some slightly bigger fish to fry in the shape of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Aggressive international communism and cold war politics were not on the USA's radar at that time.

Er? As far as I remember communism (at least in most of Western Europe) came to an end in 1989 with the collapse of the Berlin Wall. And as for 'bloody records', I'm not saying the liberal western democracies are faultless, but compared to Stalin's famines and purges, Mao's similar, and the crimes of Pol Pot and other assorted grizzly communist types, I'd argue our case in court.

probably something to do with the fact that communist oppression drove them out of their country. Tibetan exiles cannot go back for fear of arrest and imprisonment, neither can their children or grandchildren. It's hardly surpring they lose touch with certain aspects of their culture. But at least here they are free to express the opinion that Tibet is and should be an independent nation. They do not enjoy such a luxury in Tibet.

Olympic Flame, might I suggest you actually read something about the history of Tibet, rather than just reciting Chinese government propoganda about that benighted nation.

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Olympic Flame

To start off, there is no disillusionment about China. China is not a liberal democracy. China is a developing country with as much as social problems/injustice and political problems as we can easily observe. The establishment principle of "stability" and progressive as a collective society is diametrically opposed to the majority of libertarians here. This however does not invalid much of the criticism directed towards excess China-bashing, particularly the Free Tibet advertising.

If it is a book written by scholars it would worth some recommendation. Movies or books such as "sever years in Tibet" built upon stereotypes were, indifferent from other literature of similar purposes, politically motivated.

The uprising are mainly small scaled disturbance rather than organised millitary violence. It is true that there are horsemen who live in India and subscribe to such philosophy and they also criticise Dalai Lama for dancing along with the voice of Western leaders-a softer approach to advance in the issue of Tibet.


The citation of Tibet as a region experiencing rigorous growth and development is used to illustrate an inconvenient truth. It is, of course, not used to justify any othe thing. An inconvenient truth is something that opposition ignore or painfully ignore. An inconvenient truth is something observable without much detailed scrutiny but something people dont want to talk about.



Dalai Lama is a politician singing songs in tunes of self-righteous liberal interventionist. He knows the rules of the game and he surely knows how to play it.



Manpower was transfered to Tibet for economic and social assistance such as engineers and health care workers. Prior to that, Tibet itself as an extremely under-developed landlocked region. Independent Chinese migration saw it as a land of opportunity.
Ethical Minority in China are exempted from one child policy and given preferential treatment to University enrollment.
The idea of we want "white tenets only in our white communities" is no different from "we want Tibetans only in the plateau". Note that Tibetan advocate regard that particular issue as far more importance than the political reality of The PRC-such as a lack of democracy.




India fought border wars with China before and a balkanised China means a lesser neighbouring threat, especially in the succesful establishment of a vast new nation with little economic or millitary power-all signs of vulnerability of being under Indian influence.

Would India remove their military in Jammu and Kashmir and advocate Independence, or any other form of reduction of her control?



In the constitution of ROC, republic of China, or what is known as Taiwan today, Tibet is also an integral part of China. Even mongolia independence, a deal Chinese communists made with the Soviets was unrecognised. It is a regime that USA and her western associated have supported for decades. It is the international politik that counts.


What kept "democracy" and other evils such as "racism" and "class exploitation" alive at the same time for hundred of years?
Prior to the civil rights moement, Soviets were massively campaigning against that and regarded "racism" as the Achilles' heel of western Imperialism, in contrast to the socialist version of "New Soviet man" based on equality.

The ruling class, esp the WASPs in Washington even employed forced integration through the use of national guards. The evolution of social welfare and collective bargain was also an response against a possible communist ideological takeover.


Advocating separatism/secessionism against the Nation is against the law in China, from what I know, just as the public order act of UK which criminalise
certain speech.