Olympic Flame

Nothing has changed in China since Mao came to power?
You really need to brush up your history and current affairs.
You missed out the defeat of the gang of 4 and the end of the disastrous cultural revolution, the subsequent economic liberalisation by China and her socio-political liberalisation as well with millions lifting out of poverty and a rising middle class.

There are numerous Chinese students waving their national flags in London and Paris to express their support for the game and their country. Are they also government paid agents as well to pretend to support a Stalinist regime?

From Wikipedia
From 1951 to 2007, the Tibetan population in Lhasa administered Tibet has increased from 1.2 million to almost 3 million. Benefits that are commonly quoted include — the GDP of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) today is thirty times that of before 1950, workers in Tibet have the second highest wages in China,[102] the TAR has 22,500 km of highways, as opposed to none in 1950, all secular education in the TAR was created after the revolution, the TAR now has 25 scientific research institutes as opposed to none in 1950, infant mortality has dropped from 43% in 1950 to 0.661% in 2000, life expectancy has risen from 35.5 years in 1950 to 67 in 2000, the collection and publishing of the traditional Epic of King Gesar, which is the longest epic poem in the world and had only been handed down orally before, allocation of 300 million Renminbi since the 1980s for the maintenance and protection of Tibetan monasteries.

CHINA¡¯S TIBET FACTS AND FIGURES 2006

Tibet is over 90 percent Tibetan and Dalai Lama cries a demographic aggression when Tibet is more Tibetan than UK is more British. Isn't this worth noting?

1951-About 1.15 million
Death rate: 28‰; infant mortality rate: 430‰

End of 2005 2.77 million
The birthrate was 17.9‰, mortality rate 7.2‰，and natural growth rate 10.7‰

In history, natural calamities, diseases and poor medical conditions, plus the fact that monks and nuns were not allowed to marry, meant that the Tibetan population registered negative growth for a prolonged period of time and there was even a sharp decrease. According to historical records, from the 7th to the 18th century, the Tibetan population overall decreased by eight million while in the 200 years from the 18th to the mid-20th century, the population further declined by 800,000.

Data shows that the period from 1951 to the present time is the one witnessing the fastest growth of the Tibetan population in the past 1,000 years or more. During the period, the birthrate and the natural growth rate have remained above the national average, with the Tibetan population increasing by 1.5 million. At the end of 2005, the population of the Tibet Autonomous Region reached 2.77 million, a net increase of 33,200 over 2004. The birthrate was 17.9 per thousand, mortality rate 7.2 per thousand, and the natural growth rate 10.7 per thousand.


Economy
For five straight years, the economy of Tibet maintained a growth rate of more than 12 percent, higher than the national average level over the same period. The per capita GDP of Tibet in 2005 reached 9,098 Yuan, up 10.8 percent.......

Culture
By the end of 2005, the Tibet Autonomous Region boasted 24 professional art performing groups, 172 cultural centers, four public libraries and two museums. It also had one broadcasting station, 34 short and medium wave broadcasting transmitting stations and five TV stations with the radio and TV coverage rate reaching 84.9 percent and 86.0 percent respectively. Tibet published 44.27 million copies of newspapers, 2.83 million different kinds of magazines and 8.60 million books in the year.

Rapid development was achieved in the arts cause. From 2001 to 2005, professional arts teams in Tibet created 603 programs and plays and 289 songs, and many of them made excellent achievements in the whole region or even in the country, gaining 43 national-class awards and 222 autonomous regional-class awards. Great successes were also gained in the research and performances of the civil arts; 17 civil art groups performed 800 shows annually, providing abundant art programs for Tibetan people in their festivals every year. It was calculated that the added number of shows performed by all the professional arts groups reached more than 4,000, including more than 1,600 shows performing in farming and pasturing area where the total audience was 2.32 million.

From 2001 to 2005, the Tibetan cultural industry saw rapid development with constantly enlarged scale and the strength of cultural enterprises and the research and development ability of the cultural products and services gradually being enhanced. At present, there are 2,443 business places of cultural entertainment in Tibet with 10,459 employees, realizing more than 8 million Yuan worth of annual revenue and better satisfying the various cultural demands of the masses.

Tibet carried out grass-roots cultural construction and projects of cultural information resources and publicized policy documents such as the protection of the region’s immaterial cultural heritage, and successfully held regional social and cultural activities gaining 43 different kinds of national awards such as Group Stars Award. In addition, the region trained 30 mass cultural and mid-degree professionals, and trained 100 leaders of cultural centers and more than 160 grass-roots cultural business cadres.

In the next five years, according to the actual demand of the cultural work, Tibet will further increase investment with a stress on building a batch of key cultural facilities necessary for developing the cultural life of the masses, and gradually constructing a structure of grass-roots cultural facilities with a base of mass arts center, library, exhibition hall, arts performing group, county comprehensive cultural activity center, town cultural center and village cultural office. By 2010, efforts will be made raise the per capita cultural entertainment consumption in Tibetan urban and rural area to more than 5 percent of the expenditure volume and for the cultural industry to become the main contributor to the Tibetan economy.

youcanhandlethetruth

"economic liberalisation by China and her socio-political liberalisation"

Is this similar to the "liberalisation" of Iraq ? Just wondered.........

We are to believe China out of the goodness of their hearts, took it upon themselves to take pity on Tibet, without any personal gain at all ?

Anyone who believes that is living in a dreamworld.

You can quote mortility rates and propagandist sources like wikipedia if you like to argue living standard are better now, but judging by China's human rights record, one child policy and the oppression they still show towards Tibet today, there is little reason to believe anything has changed for the average Tibetan at all.

Selectively quote all the economic figures you like - it's still a brutal and oppressive regime that supresses freedom of speech - fact.

"better satisfying the various cultural demands of the masses." means basically "screwing and westernizing Tibet for the profits of the invaders, and the companies operating over there.

Quality of life is not all about profit for big business, it is about personal freedom. Any economic figures are likely to portray the fact that Tibet is being used and exploited to make money for the Chinese.

And I personally doubt the average Tibetan slave is any better off at all....

"There are numerous Chinese students waving their national flags in London and Paris to express their support for the game and their country. Are they also government paid agents as well to pretend to support a Stalinist regime?"

No like everywhere there are people like them (and like you) who enjoy mindlessly supporting whoever or whatever is the cool thing to do, without considering the political implications of supporting such a debacle.

I'm sure there are some Zimbabweans in London who support the Zimbabwe cricket team, but it doesn't mean the Zimbabwe leadership is not corrupt, or that we should send our cricket team to play there. (though ironically we probably still do - well if you're supporting China anyway why have double-standards ?)

To be kind to you, you've got a very twisted view of freedom and you're "all for profit" no matter what the consequences to the average Tibetan.

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits: Akria,Clippo,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist,MikeUK

Olympic Flame

It is totally different from the evidence above.
As your name says you can handle the truth, it is time to put it into practice.

Of course no. I would object if anyone take such a view.
All states want the entirety of their and and population-their sovereignty. It is no secret.
Isn't it time to expose the mask of Free-Tibet cheer leaders as misguided individuals who jump at joy for the first time they can express a sense of rebellion and uncivility under the banner of self-righteousness?

Do you believe their story that China has done nothing in the land other than "brutal mass murder", "cultural genocide" and "demograhic aggression".


Leaving the debate on China' human rights record aside, this statement itself is a Non sequitur.

I dont have to "selectively quote". From a rough glance, there is no economic argument in your favour.
Go through my sources and pick evidence to support your claims if you can find.
China's constitution guarantees freedom of speech but like other states, it has a few laws limiting freedom of speech, for instance, excitement of religious and racial hatred or bringing about the subversion of state and socialist China.
It is arbitrary and open to abuse, but "far from a brutal and oppressive regime that supresses freedom of speech".

If you have looked through the source in greater detail Tibet isn't "westernised". There are rural regions where conservative Tibetan culture flourish and yes, there are alot banks, cinemas, Macdonalds in city areas.
What you say "westernised" is in fact "modernised". I do not see problem with that.

Firstly, there are very poor Han Chinese in China as well, and millions who are exploited by corporates and business, especially so when China's present unions are not as strong as the European ones. I find it odd when some are trying to paint a picture of "Tibetans being exploited by Chinese to make money". If you look at the monetary policies China has for minority, Han Chinese are much more likely to be exploited by business and corporates than Tibetans.

Staying wealthy itself does not mean you have access to all freedom. You are right about that. But it is without a shadow of doubt that staying poor or staying in an impoverished developing country has much of your personal freedom snatched away. If you are dirt poor in a nation without a reasonable level of welfare and education system there isn't a fair playing ground to start with. If you are trapped in a nation with incompetant legal system or law enforcing agency your lives and properties are threatened everynow and then.

To give a more detailed example while in law China strictly forbids the use of torture the official in 2000admits that there is still abuse of power occasionaly happening in remote regions from Beijing where a check and balance on the law enforcing agents is not well built.

Therefore, I saw problems of China and human rights issues in China as largely for her progressive stage as a developing nation who has just struggled to feed her population not so long ago, and is having a rapid economic achievement which her socio-political changes find themselves too slow to cope with.

To start off, the media frenzy and politically correct consensus clearly shows that supporting China is not cool. You should lecture the free Tibet cheerleaders who have a firm conviction that they are not doing something cool, but self-righteous and attention seeking as their present mood perfectly fits your accusation.
Did they actually sit down and do their research or do whatever they can to obtain a sense of "good feeling" by expressing their rebellion with a politically correct banner?

Not only did the Chinese students support their game, they also oppose Tibet Independence and have been distributing leaflets to air their views. It is clearly more than a game.

That's really a grossly inaccurate description of my views. In fact the average live of a Tibetan has been an important segment of my argument.

youcanhandlethetruth

"Do you believe their story that China has done nothing in the land other than "brutal mass murder", "cultural genocide" and "demograhic aggression".

As if that's not enough already !

"China's constitution guarantees freedom of speech but like other states, it has a few laws limiting freedom of speech"

So it guarantees freedom of speech except when it doesn't - that shows what complete rubbish you speak....

"far from a brutal and oppressive regime that supresses freedom of speech".

You’re having a laugh !
Do the words “Tiananmen" and "Square” mean nothing to you ?
Are you saying people in China can openly criticize the government without any blowback ? You’re living in a dreamworld again !

But you’re a blatant liar and propaganda merchant – that’s completely obvious to everyone by now anyway.

"Leaving the debate on China' human rights record aside"
How very convenient since that is the main point of the whole debate.......

Other examples of your “doublespeak” are
1)
"far from a brutal and oppressive regime that supresses freedom of speech".
” it has a few laws limiting freedom of speech"

2)
“Tibet isn't "westernised".
“yes, there are alot banks, cinemas, Macdonalds in city areas.”

Westernized/modernized whatever you like – you don’t see the problem with another country forcibly imposing itself on another country, and setting up businesses there to make money ? Do you agree with the U.S stealing Iraq's oil too ?
It’s like saying I could set up a business inside your house and there’d be no problem.

You admit China are using Tibet for personal gain but you see no problem with that.
Are you a thief too as well a liar ?

“millions who are exploited by corporates and business, especially so when China's present unions are not as strong as the European ones.”

So there’s no problem with exploitation either. I wonder whether China’s unions not being strong is any consequence of the Chinese dictatorship and their slave policy ? Hmmmm…

“In fact the average live of a Tibetan has been an important segment of my argument.”
You mean the exploitation of the Tibetan people ? Obviously so……

“China strictly forbids the use of torture”
And so apparently does America but that doesn’t stop them setting up torture camps like Guantanmo Bay and Abu Gharib and writing whitehouse memos that say that children can have their genitals extracted with pliers.
By redefining torture, you allow it to occur, by not classifying it as “torture”.
And as Zak has pointed out, there are numerous examples of Chinese torture.

“without a shadow of doubt that staying poor or staying in an impoverished developing country has much of your personal freedom snatched away.”

No freedom of speech and poverty are separate issues.
And there is no evidence living standards wouldn’t have increased if China had not imposed itself on Tibet. Bear in mind too, the west tries to impoverish any sovereign country that won't allow it to come in and play....

“It is clearly more than a game.”
The Olympic games ?
Right………..

By the way when I was talking about the 'debacle' I was actually referring to the Olympic games…

"Isn't it time to expose the mask of Free-Tibet cheer leaders as misguided individuals who jump at joy for the first time they can express a sense of rebellion and uncivility under the banner of self-righteousness?"

I suppose they are terrorists and conspiracy theorists too ?

The only ones with masks are the Chinese dressing up as Tibetan monks to incite rioting and blame it on the Tibetans(despite your ridiculous protests to the contrary)

Your “argument”(or should I say propaganda) is no more than grossly misinformation and ill informed waffle - painting some kind of picture that Tibetans are on a morally politically correct crusade.
Obviously the issue regarding China is easy enough for a child to understand, but apparently everyone else except you(including the Tibetans) are ill informed.

If people really do their “research” they will quickly understand the west has changed the face of the media(even Wikipedia) to promote a pro-western and anti-freedom agenda in the interest of big business.

Nice attempt at trying to talk to everyone like they’re 2 years old - unfortunately that seems to be your mental age.

Please carry on with your propaganda and lies - hopefully people will have stopped listening to you by the time you reply with another page of misinformation.

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits: Akria,Clippo,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist,MikeUK

Olympic Flame

So can you please tell me how is Tibet undergoing "demographic aggression "when it is over 90% Tibetans?
Is UK under demographic attack for having less percentage of British natives?
How is it cultural genocide going on when PRC government spend billions of revive native Tibetan culture and their ways of lives as supported by wikipedia and Tibet facts and stats 2006 in the previous threads?
I never expect an answer from you to defend the rhetorics of "Tibetan government in exile" but you have insisted your style of cheering and digressing from real issues with emotional ranting to support the above claims it is time for you to defend them.


I never said that china is a faithful supporter of the values of the freedom of speech. In fact Im quite honest to point out the real situations going on. Germany herself has anti-facist speech regulating laws.
UK has laws regulating speech offensive to public order.
China in general has stricter control over the above 2 but it is far from your imagined community of an "oppressive regime".
So Whats your logic to demonise China as a Maoist regime without any thoughtful investigation.

Not only that event is 20 years old, Im very sure that I can find similar events, disasters and government mishandling/overreacting to protestors/rioters that created unnecessary death in other parts of the world, in larger or smaller scale.
If it is largely the fault of the establishment isn't it already China's punishment in the form of arm embargo all the way until now?
So how does an event in Beijing 20 years ago justify Tibetan independence anyway?

You want evidence so I gave you.
Now you dont want to talk about the evidence and accuse me of lieing. So what do you want?
After all I can tell that it isn't a good feeling to have someone telling you that your years of religious fanaticism is built on misguided rhetorics without indepth studies supported.

Go back and read again.
You said China has human rights problems implied that Tibetans lives have not changed over the decades.
This is non-sequitor, a conclusion that cannot be derived logically from the assumptions.
Thats why I emphasized puting China's internal problems aside first.

Ironically my attempt to balance my arguments, something you have not done so far,-acknowledging both sides of the issue is seen by you as a "double speak".
According to your logic, Britain and Germany can be considered as a "brutal and oppressive regime that supresses freedom of speech".

2)
I see nothing wrong with that.
It is a global voluntary trend, not only in China, or specifically Tibet.

Thats not much of a convincing comparison.
China has long historical ties with Tibet and including it as parts of greater
China for thousands of years, unlike America's relationship to Iraq. America is invading an internationally recognised sovereign state. There is no disagreement about this.

China toppled the Theocratic serfdom regime and replaced it with socialism. There were major successes and unfortunately failures as well in the great cultural revolution of the 60s, but the fasionable attempt to dismiss international communism,Chinese communism or PRC's role in Tibet as a "brutal regime" carrying out "cultural genocide" is not only a historical but moral nonsense. The goals of creating equality, eqalitarianism and social advancement were sincere when the so called "Free World" is still managing colonialist empires-a symbol of class oppression, racism and despotism.

Unlike China who offered minority assistance programmes, cultural revival projects and economic aids, America did not deliver promises of freedom and democracy after the overthrown of Saddam but uncontrolled sectarian violence, civil conflicts and social chaos with escalating death rates of American soliders as well as Iraqi civilians.




Let me repeat again and again.
No state want to see balkanisation of her own.
Not any states including Russia, India, Canada or France who have their own independence movement to deal with.

This is just another digression that is not much relevent of the Tibet course.

Try to prove it instead of cutting a few phrases of my entry and interpret it in your own ways.
Try to interpret the evidence I gave that you longed for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth [

So are we going to storm the American embassies and shout "Free Guantanmo"?
Are we going to burn down American shops and stab a few of their civilians and then criticise any form of official intervention as "bloody crackdown"?
The real issue is no anti-China force is going to subject China to the same international standard, but consistently with a double standard filled with prejudice.

Remember we were talking about freedom not just freedom of speech.
Saying that Tibet will be what it is today with the assistance of PRC government is like saying the west will be like what she is today without the age of reasoning, renaissance and the great industrial revolution.

Olympic Flame

I will be watching TV enjoying the spectacular performance of athletes worldwide where they celebrate the spirit of sprotsmanship and international friendship regardless of their nationality, religion or the colour of their skin.

Try to interpret it again.
Some are people who dont have a clue of what they are doing and a justification of their actions based on misinformed ideas and based their passion unpo their self-righteous satisfaction. That is my view.

It has been debunked.
Revise the above threads.


I dont need to paint. It is bleeding obvious.
Try read articles of Spiked, an online juornalism on why Tibetophilia will not save Tibet.
There are some who follow the slogans of " one race, one people, one language" kind of ethno-jingoistic nonsense to support Tibet independece as well.

Ironicall this comes from someone who said China has not changed since Mao.

How fast did you forget something you said a few lines ago-"conspiracist theory".

You should keep yourself an open mind and study how things are rather than what you think they are or how some populist activists tell you they are.

You should fully make use of the computer in front of you to re-educate yourself on China.

You should appreciate evidence you requested instead of jumping into same old conclusion based on personal prejudice.

Last but not least, please stop cutting out phrase and interpret it in your way when I have explained my ideas in paragraphs, if not, in complete sentences at least

youcanhandlethetruth

Unbelievable !

"I will be watching TV enjoying the spectacular performance of athletes worldwide where they celebrate the spirit of sprotsmanship and international friendship regardless of their nationality, religion or the colour of their skin."

Oh you're such a good person Olympic Flame - you're totally loving, fair and unbaised.
Shame you admit that China is exploiting Tibet for it's own personal gain.

Now you are hinting that anyone who supports Tibets struggle against oppression is a racist.

What a nice person you are.....

I'm not too concerened about the "demographics" - brtual mass murder and the loss of human rights will suffice for me.

And yes nothing has changed since Mao killed 77,000,000 - it's still the same brutal regime.
My god !
Even the biggest warmonger of all Hilary Clinton, has spoken out against China's human rights record ?
But apparently I am being thick for saying the same ?
You're an idiot.

Nothing has changed in China - if you want to say China is the good guy then that's up to you, but the facts are

1) China still has a terrible human rights record and "one child policy"
2) It is not "debunked" that Chinese provoked the riots, because you simply say it has been.
3) You admit China are exploiting Tibet.

"As supported by Wikepedia" - that takes the biscuit.....

Your evidence is notoriously biased - the same as most pro-China media coverage - luckily the alternative media expose it for what it really is.

My eyes are wide open - don't patronize people and tell them what to think, I can see through scumbag government agents like you at the drop of a hat.

Anyone reading the thread can make their own mind up about who is bending the truth at the drop of a hat to support "international politik".

You are the "misninformer" and most people on this forum will probably agree with me....

By "open mind" you mean follow the mainstream media, that are totally unbiased and never have any political agenda of their own.
How stupid do you take people for ?

By the way remind us again why you are sooooo pro-China ?

Because you really care about the "exploited" Tibetan people ?

You're so fake it beggars belief......

I'm said all I'm saying to you now because there's no debating lies and propaganda - enjoy talking to yourself.

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits: Akria,Clippo,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist,MikeUK

Zak64

I agree! Britain was disgraced. Disgraced by allowing some bunch of PRC goons, oooops! I meant 'Torch Attendants' run around the streets of our Capital acting as part time enforcers of our laws!

But if you want examples of countries really disgracing themselves look at China. At least the protesters here won't have to face kangaroo courts, six year sentences for 'splittism' , will get a fair trial in front of an impartial judge, and won't be excluded from employment for three years on their release. Assuming they won't be executed that is. Should they be imprisoned they probably won't be beaten with braided steel wire, subjected to hook hangs and electrocution with electric batons. The protesters in Tibet must envy them. Further, I doubt the police will be conducting door to door searches of private property and start carting off anyone who does not have the correct papers.

I've got some news for you. In this country we have the right to free speech and free protest, within the limits of not inciting violence or racism, and any overheated protest can be dealt with by standard public order legislation. And yes, I know that these rights are, bit by bit, being eroded. That makes it all the more important to exercise them.

Where you see 'loony lefties' and 'Guardianistas' I see people who have at least some sense of duty of common humanity. Protest against human rights abuses does matter, and it does get results: not as often as we might like, but results none the less. The ever excellent EUReferendumblogspot expresses this point far more elegantly and in a more erudite way than I could ever hope to achieve.

EU Referendum: Declaration of interests - 2


You have repeated this assertion in posts 12, 14, 19, 21, 34, 47, 80, 83 and 125. Yet you offer not one shred of evidence to back up your claim that Tibet is part of China. Just because you frequently repeat an unsubstantiated claim does not make it true, no matter what Joseph Goebels may have said. I have never been to either China or Tibet, I speak no words of either language, but I have at least read several books on Tibet, and a couple on China to inform my opinion.

FREE TIBET !

__________________
If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

youcanhandlethetruth

Thankyou Zak for speaking the truth in the face of complete lies and mistruth.

But are you sure ?
According to Olympic Flame, things have changed since Mao.....

Bear says Tibet has nothing to do with us, but he (quite rightly) speaks out against the fact that Chinese police are being used against British citizens here at home ! If everyone did speak we might find there was less chance of foeign troops being allowed into Britain in the first place...

Chinese Secret Police Used In Britain Against British
The Olympic torch's mysterious companions | FP Passport
The Associated Press: Top Chinese Cops Protect Olympic Flame

It's absolutely outrageous !

They should never have been allowed to come here - even Seb Coe has descibed them as "thugs"

When are people going to wake up ?

If they allow secret Chinese police to come here and assault British citizens how long will it be before foreign EU/UN troops will be here armed with machine guns ?

Yeah right, it could never happen here.........

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits: Akria,Clippo,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist,MikeUK