crac

Chinese don't like to lose face,,,,,pity that, what with the world watching what they do right now they can't kill as many of those pesky Tibetans as they want to.

If any country which was hosting the Olympic games was engaged in a massacre of a neighbouring people ( The Tibetans are neighbours to the Chinese for instance ) then i don't think any person from any country should go to those Olympic games, because that would represent a public support for massacre and evil opression.

What is the definition of massacre several hundred dead perhaps, by so callled security forces which are in reality soldiers in different uniforms.
I think that's already a massacre and i think that the Olympic games should not be allowed or supported by any other country to happen in China because they are engaged in a wilful and intentional government backed massacre of a neigbouring people which is surely against international law.

Oh and i don't appreciate them telling bare faced lies about the Dalei Lama for your information , Mr president of China everyone knows you are lying.
Oh dear is that more loss of face???

Olympic Flame

Not really answering my question. You want to bring back serfdom?



I dont think the life and death of Non-Tibetans should be in the hands of Tibetan KKK. Given that the Tibetan KKK who stone and kill everyone Non-Tibetan looking, especially Han Chinese, they have done nothing realistic for Tibetans compared to the PRC government.

Supporting KKK or serfdom leader isn't about given Tibetans rights of decision.


This wouldn't stop. Another crackpot historian can tell me how the Zionist conspiracy manufactured the Holocaust. Anyway such decades old political propaganda are irrelevant to the situation of Tibet right now.


How unlibertarian! What you have suggested in that Native Americans can also vote to decide if White Americans should surrender all their property and be sent back to Europe.
Prepare to open your borders since alot "Englishmen" will be rushing back.
But rest assured that they wonnt rest well because the Celtic speakers need another referendum to decide whether to thrown all Englishmen back to Denmark where their Germanic ancesters came from.

You have a difficulty in grasping the concept of being anti-establishment and having deep rooted bigotry against people of other socially constructed coummunities.
Tibetans and Ethnic Hans ciivilians generally get along well these, with the exception of racially motivated riotings happening recently.

See above.
Sure thanks.

Supporting an oriental version of KKK or Aryan Nation isn't very mature regardless whether they have an intention of getting independece.
To the hippies and globalist communism isn't dead enough.


While Im not sure of your views on this issue, but if you support aggresive worldwide racial ethnical separatism and an return of old hierarchy decades ago, you have renounced your moral justification to use the world "Free" in the slogan Free Tibet. You can only say "Kill the N*****" or "Kill the Ching*****".


That was exactly my point. You are mistaking a staged drama for "struggling for liberty".


That was one of the aim-To Humiliate the chinese and their government. No disagreement with this.
Using Tibet to settle scores with China | spiked

See above.

Olympic Flame

Try guardian's comment is free and spiked, they are not Soviet State controlled media machine.

youcanhandlethetruth

Olympic Flame,

You expect people to beleive the Tibet people support a tyrannical regime and US supported dictatorship that killed 77,000,000 of it's own people ?

Mao more lethal than Hitler, Stalin
Declassified: Chairman Mao [video]

You said "It's international politik that counts"

Bullsh*t ! What an incredibly flimsy argument.

By supporting China you're supporting mass murder and oppression - simple as that.

Police 'shot at Tibet protesters'
Tibet violence spreads as Dalai Lama attacks China's 'cultural genocide' - Telegraph
Tibet crackdown outcry | Video | Reuters.com

To make out the Tibetan masses would support a regime like this beggars belief but you've obviously got a
pretty sick motive for defending the actions of a brutal regime.

No amount of spin by you or the mass media can excuse you.

Reading your propaganda I suspect you are right out of a neo-con handbook of "progress"
and listening to your disgusting posts makes me want to be sick.

And who cares about the Olympics anyway ? Like everything else it's being destroyed.
Everyone should boycott it out of principle... I certainly will.

P.S. To anyone who reads the media, believes the propaganda and thinks it the Tibetans fault, just ask yourself why they're not coming out in total condemnation of China -

It's not that difficult.....

China threatens 'nuclear option' of dollar sales

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits(in order of Porkpies) Clippo,Wowbanger TIP, Akria,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist

Olympic Flame

Your nickname says " you can handle the truth."

But this post shows that you have allowed your emotion, fasionable media rhetoric, self-righteous nonsense of the political pundits to dictate your personal thinking and forbid any in depth analysis of the issue.

It is not about disagreement on the issues but how the opposition has formed their arguments on one sided reports and politically motived interventional jingoism.

No one is "blaming Tibetans". There are millions of them in China. We are talking about the rioters.

I have already stated my points in the previous posts and there is no need to go on dissecting yours one by one.

You need to outsmart your exploitable emotion, fasionable media rhetoric, self-righteous nonsense of the political pundits.

The biased self-righteous interventionism in Palestine, Kosovo, Chechya and Tibet is breeding a hotile attitude towards the Western World. It is not hard to find some youtube videos made by Russians cheering for the death of U.S and UK forces in Iraq despite the past victory against the "Evil Empire" to "free" them. Some Chinese believed that the West is trying to turn their country into another former Yugoslavia. The sentiments of people in the Islamic world is needless to say. Things need to get fixed before it erupts into greater misunderstandings.

youcanhandlethetruth

Yes, when reasoned argument and all else fails resort to character assasination

"emotion", "rhetoric", "nonsense" - what a great debater you are ! Well done.

No I'm staing the undisputable facts actually.
Mao killed millions of his own people and the Chinese police have shot and killed Tibetans - I know you don't find it easy to defend that, but it's the truth.

You say "no need to go on dissecting yours one by one."

No please do - I really want you hear your "in depth analysis" that you claim to have - so please give us your analysis.

Who knows - maybe next you'll be calling me a "conspiracy theorist" !

If you and elements of the mainstream media want to call them "rioters" that's up to you, but unlike your claim, mine is backed with historical and undisputable evidence that China is the aggressor.

Yours are just unconfirmed and disputable claims woven in classic misinformation and unsunstantiated theory.

Should we trust the Chinese regime is telling the truth when they've massacred their own people and have intenet/media blackouts and dispel foreign journalists from the country ?

After all they (and elements of the British press) have no reason whatsover to make it look like it's the Tibetans own fault for getting murdered, especially with the Olympics just around the corner....

I suppose you think the massacre in Tianemen square was justified ?

The police shot unarmed civilians in "self defence" ?
Sure - no doubt about it

Yeah, no chance it's fully blown "propaganda" at all !

And the only self-righteous "interventionism" in Palestine, Kosovo, Chechya and Tibet is that of Western governments trying to supress them

I'm glad people can see your pathetic attempts to defend your useless position for all to see

How stupid do you take people for ?

If they've got any sense they won't listen to a single word you say....

In fact I wouldn't blame them for not even debating you about anything - you're the classic disinfo sicko - it's so obvious it's untrue.

So please carry on with your incredible "thesis" and pro-west agenda - do tell us how evil these states are and how wonderful western governments are for killing them all and supporting tyrannical communist governments.

What a very sad individual you are.

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits(in order of Porkpies) Clippo,Wowbanger TIP, Akria,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist

Olympic Flame

We are talking about the recent event anyway.
You want to dig up old history that we can discuss a volume. But it is largely irrelevant. Great Leap forward and the cultural revolution are disastrous events but they do not justify us for cheering over recent barbaric acts of secessionists and violent rioters overseas.

If Liberal Bleeding hearts want to paint a past history of PRC doing nothing in Tibet other than mass killing, genocide and total destruction it is time to tell them that we need no stories like Alice In Wonderland. I have talked about it in many posts in this thread.

After all, talking about history is not relevent to the recent event going out-China bashing cult like activities when the recent Tibetan riots, a product of western cajoling, have been given free passes and credits among our liberal interventionists.

It would deserve some understanding if it was about intellectual property rights or party corruption but I dont understand the logic of bashing China when rioters are demolishing buildings, buring and killing people while the law enforcing agencies in China are exercising their greatest restraint but no matter what we must make use of this opportunity to bash China???

You need to offer something new and not covered in the thread or give me some more concrete arguments to Bash China for Tibet, not digging out some lines from "Seven Years in Tibet" and follow the cult.

From what I know, yes, they are refered as rioters in mainstream media. I dont see technically why they are not.
And the mainstream media is trying to cook a atmosphere of "Chinese cracking down on Tibetan "protestors" " without much careful analysis or understanding.

It would help if you can be more specific.

By the same token, no regime in the world can we trust given that history of most powers have been quite bloody. They have asked foreign jounalist to leave in area of active rioting in Tibet for security reasons. It is not dispelling journalists from the entire China.

I dont think it is about a competition of victimising and it should not even though some political advocates have been actively trying to do so.

The thing is rioters are killing non-Tibetans, burning down houses and buildings. Dalai lama is sitting on the fence, being unable to cope with the redicals who once pledged their alliance to him, but now no longer care much about Dalai's personal "Peace symbol" and start to show their true colour-being violently anti-establishment and motivated by ethnic hatred. China is trying to use a soft approach to stand themselves at the higher moral point despite badmouthing from the rest of the world.


It was not "justified" but could be dealt with in a better way to minimise casuality if China at that time was better equipped and experienced with mass riot handling.

You mean Tianmen? The police who were dealing with violent rioters hurt innocent ones in the progress. It can be discussed in greater details but itself does not justify recent China Bashing. It further shows that China bashers's contempt and hatred against PRC are not about recent events but deep rooted biasness.

To sum it up shortly in 1989, China was facing a potential state collapse, not going liberal democratic if the upsurp succeed but total anarchy from today's point of view. If we look at non-western "democracies" like India and Pakistan they are not even better than China but quite worse off. Russia improved economically but not as good as China, and got her social problems worsening. And yet across the pacific U.S a feverent defender of human rights have crime rates four time higher than China while criticising China for her iliberal ways of handling crimes.

Those who impaiently talked about human rights and democracy tend to forget the word "Civilisation" or the "greater good" when these countries are slowly transofrming to a relatively more liberal and more wealthy nations. Crying a mountain out of a molehill seems to be a better alternative favoured by them since their image and dollars earned is sustained by such habits.

It is up to you to make your pensonal judgements but it seems like some are treaing it like a religion, readying to bring moral crusade upon those who disagree.

After the all it takes time and efforts to dig out different perspectives and make a rationale and realistic accessment. I would not have much problems if the opposition have done so but yet they disagree.

The average Russians, Palestinians, Serbians and Chinese dont like it. Some hate it. You disagree? It is something quite obvious.

My position in short is that the recent years of China bashing is irrational and unjustified. Whats pathetic about it?

A story of heros of Free World triumphing evils like the dramatic movie
Superman is not an ongoing vision I would recommend to describe the ongoing situation. And if I disagree I would be morally condemned. Dont you see anything wrong with it?

It is up to individuals to form their own opinions. Some are more open minded and some are not but no matter how it isn't my problem. Im just providing an alternative view.

Im critical against the media pundits and political advocate who carry out unnecessary and exaggerated China bashing.
It has been summarised here in spiked.
Beijing 2008 | spiked

Zak64

No I don't want to bring back serfdom. What a stupid assertion to make! Equally stupid is your comparison of Tibetan demonstrators with the KKK. Try googling KKK and see what they were about.

Going on the evidence of history I would suggest the PRC haven't exactly given the Tibetans much in the way of rights of decision. In fact I'd say invading their country, destroying their culture and society, and turning their country into one huge gulag wasn't giving them much of a choice at all!


For once I agree with something you say! Decades old political propoganda are irrelevant. History is not. A peoples right to self determination is not.

Nonsense. I have never suggested that. Granted the North American Indians suffered terribly at the hands of settlers. I have never even for one second, heard anybody mention the preposterous idea that all English speakers should go back to Denmark. Let's take your stupid idea to it's logical conclusion. As it is currently thought that modern humans evolved in West Africa lets have all of humanity move back to West Africa right now!


When I have as much difficulty in grasping concepts as you I'll start to worry! And don't accuse me of bigotry, I haven't insulted you, have I? Accusing me of bigotry does not advance your argument.

In 'Seven Years In Tibet' Harrer mentions that Chinese traders lived quite happily in Lhasa, even taking part in festivals and holidays. There was also a Muslim community, again living peacefully with the Tibetans. But now apparently, according to you, the Tibetans have turned into racially motivated monsters. Hmmm? I wonder, could it be because they have had 50 years of oppression under a communist dictatorship, whose members just so happen to be Han Chinese!

(Had their oppressors been Masai warriors or Botswanan Bushmen they would probably been up in arms against the Masai and Bushmen by now! )

Where have I given support for 'an oriental KKK' or 'aryan nation', supposing such a thing/things exist? I haven't and I wouldn't. I'm too mature to do a thing like that! And I think it rather immature to attempt to smear Tibetan protesters by association with race hate groups such as the KKK when no such association exists. Or do you, in your feverish imaginings, see great swarms of Klansmen scurrying across the Himalayas to help the savage Tibetan monks terrorise the poor defenceless army and riot police of the PRC? (Mind you, the traditional white robes of the Klansman would probably be pretty good camoflage against the snowy backdrop of the Himalayas! )

Too right!

Upping the ante are we? First you accuse me of bigotry, now you accuse me of out and out racism, and espousing racially motivated murder. How mature! Are you going to appologise for your disgraceful slur? Somehow I doubt it. It seems to be becoming a bit of a standard tactic for you doesn't it. If anyone disagrees with your faithfully parroted PRC line you call them, variously, feudalist, bigoted, unliberal, or racist. That is the debating tactic of the kindergarden! You are losing your argument, there is no justification for Chinas invasion of, treatment of, or continued occupation of Tibet; so all you can do is resort to insults.

Welcome to 'you are wrong'. Again. You must be getting used to the feeling of being wrong by now! A staged "drama" as you call it, has everything to do with struggling for liberty. It's a perfectly legitimate peaceful tactic in Tibets struggle for freedom from Chinese oppression. You see, in many countries it is possible to have political demonstrations, or "dramas", if you prefer, without having the tanks sent in to literally crush the demonstrators a la Tiananmen. As a PRC parrot I doubt you will find that easy to understand. I wouldn't be surprised, judging by your past form, if you now denounce the Tiananmen protestors as racist, separatist, Dali Lamaist, KKK, Nazi murderers!


Exactly! Another legitimate peaceful tactic.


As one who endlessly parrots PRC lies about Tibet, and resorts to insult over debate I feel you have no right to talk about moral justification! I can and will continue to say 'Free Tibet'

FREE TIBET!

__________________
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand.

Olympic Flame

Because you are not clear on the future of Tibet.
Rioters are stabbling and burning non-Tibetans, especially Han Chinese, and in case they have an religious background.
This is very similar to KKK for promoting anti-semtic and anti-black violence and they have a christian background.
The actions and motivations are very similar but in the case of Tibetan rioters there is also additional sense of being anti-esyablishment and no doubt the violent ones regard all Chinese are symbol of beijing rule.

There was also revenge violence against Hui people for religious clashes between Buddism and Islam as well just for another point of information.

Not forgeting that Ethnic minority get much prefered treatment to university, job allocation, limitless childbirth, lenient criem punishment and even a free cheque monthly for poor minority.
If we can agree that Chinese have less freedom than the west it is also obvious that minority Chinese have much benefits in socialist China.



Thats why I advocate independent critical thinking rather than mass hysteria.

Because I dont believe that any Tibetans have the right to ask non-Tibetans "go home" but you said Tibetans should decide who to stay in "their territory". If you believe in so then prepare worldwide mass deportation and a total return of ethnostates.



I believe that Free Tibet advocate have bigotry against non-Tibetans and China bashing crowds have bigotry against China. Thats not a confusing idea. Thats not about you as a person.

It is only limited to the Tibet separatists rather the Tibetans.
What about the Tibetan communist members in the ruling party? There are a dispropationate high number of them as compared to their represetative population.
Not forgeting that the prime instigators of Taiwan Independence are largely Han Chinese as well.

If we keep tell Tibetans how bad they are in PRC hatred will be a vicious cycle. Thats why I see the Secessionists have done nothing but "divide and disrupt". They didn't spend a single cent or effort to help Tibetans to live a better live.

The belief and motivation are similar.To exert lethal violence and intimidation against innocents of other ethinic groups. The rioters have shown themselves capable of doing that and should be condemned. It is time to put a universal moral standards on issues.




I was refering to the Free Tibet Movement and their supporters. They tend a blind eyes towards hate crimes committed against Non-Tibetans and cheer for them. Isn't this encouraging racism? Is this liberal?
Feudalist Tibet exist until communist take over.
The reasons you find such views "shocking" because liberal interventionists have never put the same standard cross all isssues and thus we see double standards and hyprocrisy continues today.
PRC's occupation of Tibet is no more illegal than Russian occupation of Siberia, European Colonisation of America and the establishment of the United Kingdom over NI, wales and Scotland. Thast why I dont see a need to "free" Tibet.
We can drag on and debate on such things but my basic position is I see double standards and hyprocrisy and make it a point to name them.
Note I say if you support then you are also supporting....It is a comparison of actions and beliefs not attacks targeted at you. If you have taken too personally then I apologise.



It is very clear.
When I talk about the recent riots which include robbing of banks and killing of innocents you dont want to answer. These are the main issues concerning recent China-bashing but you want to talk about Tiananmen and Chinese "illegal occupation" to avoid these issues.

When I talked about the act of demolishing everything and stabbing everyone Tibetan you said this is for liberty and this is not the actions of racist KKK. If I changed the words "Tibetan", "Hui" or "Han Chinese" into black or whites in modern America you will see people screaming within seconds.

Isn't this a time to put a universal standard upon issues across the globe no matter how our politicans and media tell us how evil the regime is?



It was actions, words and views that I characterise, not the personality of the opposition. I dont really know the people here and I have not insulted anyone's personal character on baseless grounds. You need to put issues under objective scrutiny no matter how shocking the results tend to be.

youcanhandlethetruth

"China bashing" "Bashing china", "china bash"

I've got to hand it to you

Yes I understand it only rains heavily some of the time but not when you are out in the open air........

What else should convince a paranoid suspector of the common sense argument that China is the victim

History re-written by arguing at great length without a paddle .........

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits(in order of Porkpies) Clippo,Wowbanger TIP, Akria,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist