Tibet

feng · 16-03-2008, 05:28 PM

YouTube - Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part...

feng · 16-03-2008, 05:30 PM

YouTube - Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympic Flame

So this means that either China accepts the deal offered by Brits or Tibet should go independent?

Read again. There were Chinese officials involved. No where did Britain recognised Tibet as independent.

How can she negotitate when things are forced upon her?

The point is simple. You are trying to beat around the bush to use some cultural and regional trait to argue the "sovereignty" of a nation which in fact itself need much solid legal justification.
Your argument could well support the idea that tibet is a very autonomous region with a distinctive native culture, but not an independent nation.
The fact is no other nation recognised it before or after the 50s says lot about it.

By the same token it could be applied to the situation of the history of the Scots, Wales and the Irish and in their unique cultural circumstances with a much stronger justification for "independence". If you take a look at the history of England it would not be hard to notice that England was ruled by anglo saxon kingdoms from the 5th BC till 1066 until the Norman conquest. It was a literally displacement of the indigenious Britons who were placed at the bottom of the caste system and this is supported by the recent years of genetic studies done across the island. Yet I dont think it is a wise suggest to ship the majority of modern English to Denmark where they come from.

Likewise I dont believe in chasing Chinese settlers out of Tibet or include some for of "Chinese Exclusion Acts" supported by Dalai Lama.

Yet, it is still hard to qualify as a nation. It requires more solid things such as foreign recognition or her own constitution and so on. The lack of such things even showed that Tibetan leaders in the past dont see themselves as leaders of independent regimes.

In disagreement, people debate. In sheer movement of frenzy, there will always be skeptics and so on.

Im no expert on East timor but Im very sure that a bid for referendum for independence without regard to the constitution or the law of the host nation is not only illegal but against international laws. Thats why South Ossetia's independence is illegal and not recognised by any other country.
For the same reason Spain reject a referendum for Catalonia and the Basque country which is illegal, unconstistutional and against international law. India was no different.
East Timor's referendum was done on an Agreement between the Republic of Indonesia and the Portuguese Republic on the Question of East Timor.

Northumbrian · 17-03-2008, 12:07 AM

'Im no expert on East timor but Im very sure that a bid for referendum for independence without regard to the constitution or the law of the host nation is not only illegal but against international laws.'

Hasn't stopped Britain and America recognising an independent Kosovo.

Olympic Flame · 17-03-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

'Im no expert on East timor but Im very sure that a bid for referendum for independence without regard to the constitution or the law of the host nation is not only illegal but against international laws.'

Hasn't stopped Britain and America recognising an independent Kosovo.

From my understanding it could possibly be due to these reasons.
1) Western Powers believe that an independent Kosovo will stabalise the Balkan region in the long term.
2) A balkanised region, especially those under Russian influence could produce smaller and weaker nations, making them susceptible and reliable to the influence of NATO and EU. This is in line with the part of the game played against the Russians.
3) To show that Western world have nothing against Muslims, despite the ferverent support of Israel by the U.S and the global world on terror by supporting predominantly Muslim Albanians in Kosovo.

Zak64 · 20-03-2008, 01:35 PM

Hello Feng, welcome to the forum.

Here's another You Tube clip. Perhaps you'll like it? Perhaps you have some friends in China you can e-mail it to? Ooops! Sorry, I forgot about the great fire wall of China.

(Warning: video contains disturbing images of Chinese oppression in Tibet, including executions)

YouTube - [Genocide] Hu killed Tibetan people.

In these days of electronic media the Chinese government is going to find it harder and harder to suppress the truth about their appaling treatment of the Tibetans. As they say 'The truth will out', I look forward to the day when Tibet is once again a free and independent nation, free of Chinese oppression. Do you?

Internationalist · 20-03-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zak64

Well put! IMO the biggest mistake the West recently made with China was allowing her into the World Trade Organisation. And for that I blame Bill Clinton. Had he stood up and said "No trade for China - till China frees Tibet!" then that may well have happened. The Chinese would have looked at the profit/loss account of their illegal occupation, and if the sums weren't in their favour they'd have found some face saving way of ending their unlawful occupation.

But doubtless Clinton also looked at the profit/loss side of the deal and found in the USAs favour. Doubtless he was all too ready to be taken in a few smug platitudes from the Chinese - rather than standing up for human rights.

I doubt I will see the end of Chinas occupation of Tibet in my lifetime. That's realpolitic!

That is entirely right - entry into the WTO was something that should have exacted a higher price from the Chinese, especially after the events of Tiananmen Square just a few years before.

When freedom is extinguished it is our business, wherever in the world that may be.

Olympic Flame · 20-03-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unionist

That is entirely right - entry into the WTO was something that should have exacted a higher price from the Chinese, especially after the events of Tiananmen Square just a few years before.

When freedom is extinguished it is our business, wherever in the world that may be.

Considering the UK infiltration of IRA she does not detest separatism any less than the PRC government, criticism directed towards China from an unionist is rather hyprocritical.

Olympic Flame · 20-03-2008, 03:25 PM

Fong has just linked us to a video probably made by some Chinese patriots, though even with their obvious spelling erros in the video presentation, has demonstrated their anger and frustration for the lack of their point of views among massive irrational and unliberal hyprocritical China Bashing Cult in the west.

It has demonstarted that Liberal Interventionist and Neo-con globalist dream of a collosal PRC hating Chinese population thirsty of western "liberty" and "democracy" once again been proven false since the Chinese idea of a harmonic multicultural society regardless of ethnicity and a passion for the unity of their motherland has taken priority over empty holy rhetorics that serve more than regional balkanisation rather than anything else.

Olympic Flame · 20-03-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zak64

As they say 'The truth will out', I look forward to the day when Tibet is once again a free and independent nation, free of Chinese oppression. Do you?

How is that to be done assuming that PRC control is removed?

Are Tibetan secessionist supposed to remove every single ex-government sponsored buildings built and rail ways constructed to their landlocked economy to show signs of regional independence?

Are non-Tibetans, especially the Han Chinese civilian "oppressors" to be removed from the region and involuntarily sent back to China?

It is a region where Tibetans and ethnic Hans get along well with.

Now the situation changed. The recent riot was not about history.
It was not about sovereignty of any nation. It was not about democarcy or human rights. Let us face the reality of this isolated event.

Horse riding mobsters and running rioters were stoning, burning and killing eveything non-Tibetan, everyone Han Chinese looking.

And Ironically our media and political advocates cheer for them.

Gorden Brown, a self proclaimed defender a multicultural Britian who promised to "destroy BNP" and stop "Darfur genocide" was steered under media and political pressure to join the cheer leadering cession by meeting with the Holy Saint of Dalai Lama.

Our leaders have decided that it is time to fully capitalise the misery and the misanthrophy of the ethnic clashes of other multicultural societies to push through the globalist agenda.

The relatively peaceful politically minded rioters are not shouting in Tibetan or Chinese but in ENGLISH, in a concidental period of several month before the Olympic game. Armed with camera mobile phones, images and messages and rapid transmitted overseas by the rioters.
Any media pundits telling us that this isn't a pre-planned activity coordinated internally and externally targeted at the western audience are assuming that Western audience smoked too much opium like the Chinese in the 19 century and could not think.

Zak64 · 20-03-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olympic Flame

How is that to be done assuming that PRC control is removed?

Errrr? Perhaps by removing PRC control!

Quote:

Are Tibetan secessionist supposed to remove every single ex-government sponsored buildings built and rail ways constructed to their landlocked economy to show signs of regional independence?

That's for the Tibetans to decide.

They would probably want to remove things like Drapchi prison and dozens like it. They'd probably want to remove the forced labour camps that the Chinese so thoughtfuly provided for them as part of their 'liberation'. Perhaps they could recycle some of the materials and rebuild some of the many monastries and temples the Chinese destroyed?

Quote:

Are non-Tibetans, especially the Han Chinese civilian "oppressors" to be removed from the region and involuntarily sent back to China?

That's for the Tibetans to decide.

Quote:

It is a region where Tibetans and ethnic Hans get along well with.

Oh yeah! They get along just famously! They've got a real peace and harmony thing going on right now - haven't they?

Quote:

Now the situation changed. The recent riot was not about history.
It was not about sovereignty of any nation. It was not about democarcy or human rights. Let us face the reality of this isolated event.

Horse riding mobsters and running rioters were stoning, burning and killing eveything non-Tibetan, everyone Han Chinese looking.

Seeing as the current struggle began on the aniversary of a previous (brutally suppressed) rebellion against Chinese rule I would say it is very much about history! If it's not about sovereignty, democracy and human rights, what is it about? Why are the Tibetans so angry that they are "killing everything.......Han Chinese"? Could it be that over the last 50 years there has been a systematic attempt by the Chinese government to obliterate Tibet's traditions, religion and culture, as well as the genocidal destruction of some 20% + of Tibet's population in the years after the invasion? Why do I see Tibetans throwing stones at riot police? Why am I reading reports of home made bombs being used against Chinese army trucks? Or are those facts another example of 'China Bashing'?

Oh, and its riots, not riot.

China acknowledges Tibet protests spreading to other provinces

Quote:

And Ironically our media and political advocates cheer for them.

Just who is your media exactly?

Quote:

Gorden Brown, a self proclaimed defender a multicultural Britian who promised to "destroy BNP" and stop "Darfur genocide" was steered under media and political pressure to join the cheer leadering cession by meeting with the Holy Saint of Dalai Lama.

Good! That must be a powerful message of support for the Tibetans in their struggle for independence.

(But typically with Gordon he's saying one thing and doing another - he's saying he will only meet with the Dali Lama if the DL says Tibet is an integral part of China. In other words, more lies, more spin more government by headline, and more evidence of what a statist cultural marxist Gordy is!)

Quote:

Our leaders have decided that it is time to fully capitalise the misery and the misanthrophy of the ethnic clashes of other multicultural societies to push through the globalist agenda.

Just goes to show what a flawed concept multiculturalism is!

Quote:

The relatively peaceful politically minded rioters are not shouting in Tibetan or Chinese but in ENGLISH, .

Of course they're shouting in English! How many international journalists would understand them if they were shouting in Tibetan? Doh!

Quote:

in a concidental period of several month before the Olympic game. Armed with camera mobile phones, images and messages and rapid transmitted overseas by the rioters.
Any media pundits telling us that this isn't a pre-planned activity coordinated internally and externally targeted at the western audience are assuming that Western audience smoked too much opium like the Chinese in the 19 century and could not think.

Yeah I know! Great isn't it? It must be hugely humilliating for the Chinese government!

Serves the b0stards right!

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17-03-2008, 12:07 AM	#53 (permalink)
Northumbrian Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England Posts: 1,461 Party: Free England Party	'Im no expert on East timor but Im very sure that a bid for referendum for independence without regard to the constitution or the law of the host nation is not only illegal but against international laws.' Hasn't stopped Britain and America recognising an independent Kosovo.

20-03-2008, 03:25 PM	#58 (permalink)
Olympic Flame Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 255	Fong has just linked us to a video probably made by some Chinese patriots, though even with their obvious spelling erros in the video presentation, has demonstrated their anger and frustration for the lack of their point of views among massive irrational and unliberal hyprocritical China Bashing Cult in the west. It has demonstarted that Liberal Interventionist and Neo-con globalist dream of a collosal PRC hating Chinese population thirsty of western "liberty" and "democracy" once again been proven false since the Chinese idea of a harmonic multicultural society regardless of ethnicity and a passion for the unity of their motherland has taken priority over empty holy rhetorics that serve more than regional balkanisation rather than anything else.