Zak64

I have read 'Seven Years In Tibet' by Heinrich Harrer, it is of course an invaluble eyewitness account of pre invasion Tibet. Harrer was of course more famous as a mountaineer, but his eyewitness accounts are valid. It was first published in 1953, a long time before 'Free Tibet' became a trendy cause celebre in Hollywood. The book is not politically motivated, in my opinion.

Your assertion that:
denotes a staggeringly wrongheaded misunderstanding of the situation. There is no Tibetan army to stage a military revolt. It may astonish you to learn that the Chinese would not allow the formation of a Tibetan Army. Over 87,000 Tibetans were murdered by the Chinese after the 1959 uprising - those are Chinese figures by the way. Care to justify them?

As for 'inconvenient truth' the fact of the Chinese genocide in Tibet seems to be an inconvenient truth to you. I can only reiterate, there was no need for the Tibetan people to be subjected to a genocide in order to foster economic development. Is that hard to understand?

The Dali Lama is, in my opinion, a disaster for Tibet. He's just not radical or angry enough, why he refers to the murderous Chinese invaders as 'Brothers' defies me! As for real politic; the Chinese will free Tibet when, and only when they are forced to pay too high a price for their continued and illegal occupation. Had the Dali Lama taken a leaf out of the IRAs book we could be looking at a free Tibet right now. It's a pity he did not. The Chinese occupation was on shaky ground, at least for the first few years.

Mass immigration of Han Chinese into Tibet was forced on the Tibetans by the Chinese and their brutal occupation. It's not something the Tibetans ever wished for.



Since when has democracy been an evil? I would assert that the civil rights movement in the USA would have happened whatever the Soviets said. As for the 'New Soviet Man', wasn't he supposed to come into existence in 1985? Has anybody heard from him since?

Oh No! I have broken Chinese Communist law! How will I ever forgive myself?

Olympic Flame, is the Chinese Government paying you to lurk on forums spouting the same Chinese lies about Tibet? Why are simply vomiting out the same lies the Chinese propoganda machine has been putting out about their illegal occupation on Tibet for the last few decades?

Try reading and understanding at least some of the following:

Free Tibet Campaign - Major Allegations: Key Facts on the Chinese Occupation of Tibet

'A Strange Liberation; Tibetan Lives In Chinese Hands' by David Patt.

'Fire Under The Snow; Testimony of a Tibetan Prisoner' by Palden gyatso.

'Waiting For The Sun' by Mary Craig.

I hope they are not too full of 'inconvenient truths' for you!

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If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

The Bear

So Tibet, a nation that is in all but name a part of China, has been taken over by China.

Big deal.

That’s life. Get used to it.

Next subject for debate?

Zak64

Part of China according to the despicable corrupt brutal and oppressive Chinese government. Tibet existed as an independent nation for hundreds of years - fact. May I remind you that China conquered Tibet militarily - the Tibetans didn't ask for Chinas invasion.

Were you Tibetan you might find that to be a 'big deal'!

__________________
If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

The Bear

It was inevitable that the nation of China that Mai created would sooner or later address unfinished business and Tibet was part of that unfinished business as is Taiwan.

For a very long time Tibet was in essence a region of greater China.

It is once more.

Get used to it.

In any case this is only realpolitik in action.

The old Dali Lama comes over as a nice guy but here again, so what?

Life is as it is, not as one might wish, and in any case it’s NON of our business.

Olympic Flame

A lot of criticism is targeted towards the great cultural revolution, which the whole China suffered through it as a result. Strangely enough, that give some people a free pass for Tibetan independence.

A lot more died in China's civil war anyway. Im not going to "justify" history. Political powers and much "isms" come through bloody path. Note the use of the phrase "murder of Tibetans" which is trying to convey a different message.

I feel a deep sympathy and empathy to Jewish people, the most tragic victims of genocide in 20th century when the term "genocide" is often maniputed like inflated currency by political advocates to suit their own agenda.

So you support international terrorism as well as international secessionism?
The Interventionists in Washinton and Brussels dont need an angry man trying to stage a "river of blood" scene in Tibet. Interventionists need a "peaceful" symbol to put them on seemingly high moral ground. Do you honestly think he can get Nobel "Peace" prize if he subscribe to your radical view? Someone has to be the Mr Good guy and Dalai Lama knows his role.

This corresponds to the claim that Iraqi insurgents as well as Alqaeda do they do because they "hate our freedom". This suits the agenda that Human rights is a problem for China but not oil rich producing nation such as Saudi Arabia. Isn't the picture more or less complete?


A referendum for immigration policy? When? where? how? I wonder if it happened in any part of the world.
As i have said, Chinese immigrants come in two types. There are government personnels and civil servents to provide assistance to the regime. There are individuals who saw greater personal opportunities.
Thanks to the decades of free tibet movement people, like you has formed an intense hatred towards not only China, but the entire Chinese population. I think this isn't the spirit of human rights and democracy, is it?


Im not trying to paint democracy as evil but communism isn't running against "democarcy" but is itself diametrically opposed to capitalism, inequality and racial/class opression, everything that co-existed with democracy in the western world for centuries until the 60s and 70s.
It's highly debatable what role did international communism played in improvement of equality and social justice in the west. "Neo-marxism" is often a label some staunch conservatives like to put on socially progressive ideas.

Cold War Civil Rights:Race and the Image of American Democracy, historian Mary L. Dudziak showed how, in the ideological battle of the Cold War, Communist critics could easily point out the hypocrisy of the United States's portrayal of itself as the "leader of the free world" when so many of its citizens were the object of racial discrimination. She contended that this was a major factor in pushing the government to support civil rights legislation.



Lies are deliberately made false statements that I would not make. I also dont believe in deliberately forging an consensus through appealing to emotions and ad hominem attack. There is no reason to believe that Free Tibet movement, or any other movement should not be examined under detailed scrutiny.

Sure and thanks and I ll look to it when Im free. Just a gentle reminder anyway. By understanding, it includes the reliability, usefulness and perspective of sources rather than blindly conforming to the thesis pushed forward by the authors.

Instead of beating the dead horse such as how many religious Tibetans are tortured in the great cultural revolution that rocked China, or victims of "genocide" in civil wars decades ago when China itself has been in defacto state of civil wars for decades, there are better ways to look at the issue in modern China to advance the interest of all people of China regardless of race or religion.

If you understand the underlying spirirt of [b]ethnonationalism[b]

Olympic Flame

If you understand the underlying spirirt of ethnonationalism it is as simple as a rigid, tribal and collective mentality of people bound by a racial/ethnic mentality with a common shared history, language and religion and it rejects multiculturalism, civic nationalism, or any other socio-political variants and actively advance the idea of a sovereign state for the particular ethnic/racial group entitled to self determination. It happenes to kurds in Turkey, Puerto Rican in America, CheChens in Russia and Serbs in Kosovo. "Human rights" and "democracy" in the case of Tibetan secessionist movement are nothing more than temporary political stickers compared to the historically consistent sentiments shared by ethnonationalists worldwide.

The Bear

So it's Nazism minus (to date) the death camps then?

Zak64

No denying that! The Cultural revolution saw millions of chinese die at the hands of their government. That does not justify Chinas invasion of Tibet, in and of itself that fact justifies calls for Tibetan independence.


Murder I said, murder I stand by. I chose the word to convey exactly what it means. The Tibetans were murdered by the Chinese Liberation Army, as it was and is remains an illegal occupation. If an army marches into a foreign country and starts executing civilians (and I have read the eyewitness reports) then it is murder. Plain and simple. It's every bit an act of murder as when Nazi troops killed Jewish civilians in occupied Russia. It is not an act of war, we are not talking about soldiers falling in battle here. Murder.


I agree it used as political currency. But I would still call what happened in Tibet genocide.


Not quite what I said. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Had the Tibetans fought back more strongly against the Chinese in the early years of the occupation they would probably have driven the Chinese out.

The only 'River Of Blood' in Tibet was the one created by the Chinese with their appaling genocide against the Tibetans. Personally I don't care what the Dali Lama gets awarded or not, he is an ineffectual leader in my opinion.

Human rights abuses are a problem worldwide, not just in China. But this thread concerns Tibet. Please feel free to start a thread on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else for that matter.

I was highlighting the lack of democracy for the Tibetans (and the Chinese themselves come to think of it)

Ineresting turn of phrase! If they are providing 'assistance to the regime' then surely the 'regime' is something separate to the Chinese immigrants, be they beauracrat or ballet dancer!

Excuse me! At what point did I say I had a hatred of the entire Chinese people or nation? I don't! Please don't ascribe such actions to me.

Further, I would suggest that anybody who acts as an appologist for an illegal invasion of an independent nation and subsequent genocide is probably not best placed to start questioning others on what 'the spirit of human rights and democracy' means!

Ummm! Look at post #10, you called democracy evil then! In my opinion communism played no role whatsoever in improving western nations. Free markets (free-ish) and representative democracy did that. Look at how poor the average Western country was under communism, IE the old Soviet Block. And it was the British navy, acting under the orders of the House of Parliament that swept the Atlantic of slave ships, in the face of opposition from other western countries, and ended the slave trade. So not everything democracy does is bad; neither is it faultless. On the other hand I can't think of anything much good at all that communism has done.

Granted. It's a pity there were no similar rights movements in any communist country that I am aware of. I pointed out there was no Tibetan equivalent of Martin Luther King.

I don't think I have accused you of lying have I? Neither is disagreeing with you an attack. I am prepared to believe the Free Tibet movement should be as scrutinised as any other movement.


I consider the eyewitness accounts I have read to be reliable.

I'm not beating a dead horse. The Tibetans want their country back, they want to be free! I have listened to what the Chinese government have said about Tibet, and I have read up on the history of Tibet. I believe the Tibetans side of the story.

(Incidently the Free Tibet movement didn't convince me of anything - one way or the other. I read a section in a mountaineering memoir that had a few pages about Tibet in it. I read up on Tibet and formed my own conclusions without reference to the Free Tibet movement)

Just because crimes happened some decades ago does not mean that they were not crimes then. Neither does it mean reparation should not be made today or at some future point. Again, you confuse the Chinese and Tibetan people and their interests. Were the Tibetans free to speak without fear of persecution I'm sure they would say the same; or substantialy similar.

It seems to me as if that last paragraph is an attempt to brush the crimes commited during Tibet's occupation under the carpet. Are you sure you don't work for the Chinese government?

Why are we reading about things like this if everything in the Tibetan garden is as rosey as the Chinese Government would have you believe!

Chinese troops use teargas to halt Tibet monks' second day of protest - Times Online


I do! FREE TIBET!

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If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

The Bear

Stuff Tibet. It's a region of China.

Zak64

It is now! Despite the protestations of the Tibetans themselves the Chinese have well and truly annexed it. And in realpolitic terms I just don't think they are about to withdraw from her territories now.

By your logic Bear you might as well just say "Stuff Britain, it's a region of the EU!"

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If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!