Olympic Flame

Im not sure but according to your argument that they welcome authority isn't it our turn to repect their "love of authority"? Maybe it is time to let them speak for themselves.

From my own study of Taoist philosophy it basically states that body is a useless non-living item which becomes meaningful and lively only if agitated by "qi" to have the characteritics of a moral and thinking human beings. Buddism and Confucianism emphasizes non-discriminatory values as well, though sometimess Confucianism emphasizes a "class structure" which involves the role of gentlemen, women, lords and their subjects.

What you have described sounds more like the made in America scientific racism literature influencing the Western World in prior to the 1950s.

If we can see the big picture rationalely then we wont be swayed easily by any other one sided views.

crac

Don't mix up Buddhism with Confusionism.

Confusionism is used as an instrument of the state in China to inculcate from birth blind obedience to all representatives of state authority. They don't do that out of love of the people they do that because they want no one ever to start to think for themselves.

Whereas Buddhism is one of the great religious inspirations of the world and Tibet is a truley unique place holding such a concentration of devoted practitioners priceless artifacts and an ancient history of honerable decent kindly Buddhist beliefs which is all about bringing peace to the world.

We see them today fighting courageously against the despotic Chinese occupation and vandalism, of their ancient peacful culture.

Tibet should be named a world heritage culture and yes they should be helped to modernise a bit, but freely without strings and the despotic Chinese invaders should be kicked out permanently and made to pay reperations and face charges of crimes against humanity for their filthy disgusting abuse of Tibet and Buddhism.

HighlandFP

When I finished university in 2002 there was 2 Chinese chaps {great boys - one was skint at Xmas time and his dad sent £10,000} in my class.
Uni of Abertay Dundee was doing big pushes to get many more Chinese,
which i believe they did. I think the Uni had a yen for the Yuan.

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Zak64

You are not refuting the facts because you can't refute them. Whether something tragic/happy happened very definitely does come into it. How can you argue that invasion, oppression, cultural and actual genocide were good for Tibet? How was the systematic destruction of Tibets natural resources good for Tibet, holisticly? It wasn't. You are talking rubbish! Again.

As to life expectancy, that's a false argument as well. I daresay that life expectancy in China, and doubtless many other nations, was about the same at that time. Have you ever heard of vaccinations/immunisations? Life expectancy has increased in many places, and not just because of the "glories" of Chinese socialism.

Tibet without China would be free! It would return to being an independent self governing nation, as it should be. Tibet doesn't need any cheques from the UK and the USA. And it certainly doesn't need any cheques from China. It's had quite enough of those allready, thank you!

And anyway, the Tibetans are more job competent in todays globalised world. You said so yourself. That's a great argument for a free Tibet!

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If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

Olympic Flame

Communism, like colonialism, Imperialism,capitalism and "democracy" have blood stained history as compared to our present standard of freedom and humanity.
China is no exception in her history towards her own people.
But if some are saying that China has carried out a systematic "destruction" and "cultural genocide" in Tibet against Tibetans that is a blatant lie.

It would be impossible without the aid from the Chinese establishment which brought tens of thousands of health care workers, teaching professions and modern industries. There is no magical power involved. It is real actions as compared to empty talks and insults from the Tibet Independence Movement.

How? Other than Japan, tell me any other non-Western liberal democracy that is functioning on a reasonable level of success in western standard?

A major problem for Tibetans comes from their spiritual rejection of modernity which perpetuate their relative poverty as compared to other ethnic groups in China.

Why not? Despite the government aid to the minority such as exemption of one-child policy, monetary rewards, lighter criminal punishment and preferential admission quota in university admission and civil service, there is still an income divide between Tibetans and other ethnic groups.

More job competent than feudal Tibet, that was my point.
That was due to the strong federal support from Beijing Leadership, not blessing from the Budddha.

crac

Spoken like a lap dog, or the cur, of a tyrant.

XXXX O.F.

Zak64

No, it's a blatant truth. China has carried out a systematic cultural destruction of Tibet. What else do you call the destruction of so many monastries and religious artefacts, and the imprisonment, torture and execution of so many of her people, including so many monks?

(Please note: I am not expecting any rational attempt to refute this. I expect I will be accused of 'China Bashing', or if you, OF, are particularly irritated by these inconvenient truths, you may resort to accusing me of promoting racially motivated murder, as you did in post # 62.)

I am perfectly sure that the Tibetans would have been capable of advancing their own health status without Chinas "help". I notice again you make no attempt to refute my suggestion that much of that would have come about as a result of immunisation against common childhood illnesses. You also fail to mention that China also brought in nuclear weapon sites, many hundreds of thousands of troops, and created a secret police state. As for teachers, would they be the same teachers who teach Cantonese in Tibets schools as part of an attempt to eradicate the Tibetan language? They also stripped Tibet of her natural resources, such as her forests, and imposed forced labour upon thousands of Tibetans in frequently fatal starvation conditions. Not to mention all the torturers and executioners they exported into Tibet. I feel perfecty free to insult those who have carried out such inhuman acts. And I'm going to keep insulting them.

South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong. But of course these haven't suffered decades of oppression at the hands of a murderous and tyrannical regime. (Rats in a barrel, anyone?)

Tosh! A major problem for Tibetans comes from being treated as sub human scum in their own country by their Chinese oppressors.

Now you're just winding me up! Excuse me! But I saw the excellent Channel 4 documentary on Monday 31st at 20:00. Everything in your previous statement is a blatant lie. The courageous exiled Tibetan, Tash Despa, traveled undercover back to his homeland, and filmed and interviewed undercover. Here is what Channel 4 has to say about it.

In the documentary we also heard from a woman who was forcibly sterilised by the Chinese authorities. The journalists had to go to her house extremely early in the morning, as she was petrified of potential informers seeing strangers at her house. She stated that Tibetan women were forcibly sterilsed. If they refused sterilisation they had to pay an impossibly steep fine. If they couldn't Chinese troops/police (the difference being?) arrived and confiscated anything of value, and also took away the stove, thus depriving the family of food and heat. The sterilisation was carried out without the benefit of any anaesthetic, and the womans fallopian tubes were simply ripped out by the roots, rather than being cut and tied.

We also heard from a Tibetan who commited the hideous crime of handing out pro Tibetan independence leaflets. Sentance: six years. Plus a further three years of having all political rights withdrawn for three years, thus making it near impossible to earn a living. In prison he was subject to whipping with braided steel wire and electrocution. He stated that elctrocution when dry was far preferable to execution when wet. I can only surmise he was talking from experience.

No. Tibetans who cannot speak Cantonese are denied all but menial jobs. They certainly cannot work for the Civil Service, as you so blatantly and lyingly claim in your post. Given the choice between the blessings of the Buddah, and the "blessings" of the Chinese government, I'm pretty sure I can guess which one the average Tibetan would prefer.

Exclusive: Chinese police kill eight after opening fire on monks and Tibet protesters - Times Online

I doubt that anyone who saw the Channel 4 documentary, or has followed recent events there, or even read anything of her history, could argue that the Tibetans are in any way free and unoppressed.

Unless of course they just happened to be a paid up lickspittle smecket appologist for a bunch of mass murderers. And I know we don't have anyone like that on this forum.

FREE TIBET !

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If anyone complains about unlimited mass immigration we call them a racist - it's our culture!

BonnieDundee

It is not just cultural genocide, it is real genocide. I think the general consensus is about 600,000 Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese. Let's not forget this is one of history's worst regimes.

Olympic Flame

It happened in the great cultural revolution, not only in Tibet as well as many parts of China.
In the 80s China followed Hu Yao Bang's policy of appeasement, which is government aided revivial of Tibetan culture through the building of religious infrastructure, greater freedom and openess, and more minority subsidies.
Supporting Tibetan rioters is supporting murder, in this case attacks on Muslims minority in Tibetan dominated areas.
I got used to be called a paid Communist Propaganda machine deviod of humanity, it is time for you to get used as well.



Ok, I well see how you support this claim later.
No. Life expectancy isn't only about immunisation against childhood disease.
You need proper medication, safe drinking water, a reasonable standard of living without war or famine. All these could not happen in the theocratic Tibet without the communist take over.
Nuclear Weapon test sites are in north western China, the desert dominated area, not in Tibet.

China is far from being a police state, in fact weak police force and sometimes corruption within the police force constitutes social problems.

Note you mentioned democracies such as Hong Kong and Singapore. They inherited well-rounded legal system from being parts of the past british empire and continued to govern their society with a reasonable low crime rates compared to London or big cities of America.

I cant really stop laughing as this is the most ridiculous stereotype of China or Chinese.
In Canada, the Chinese immigrants are mainly from Hongkong are hence they do speak Cantonese.
The early settlers of Chinese immigrants in U.S are of South eastern China are hence they spoke a variety of Sourthern dialects.
The majority of Chinese in China speak Mandarin, though there is regional accent variation among them.

The Tibet Autonomous Region is poor in coal, oil and natural gas, but rich in hydro-, geothermal, solar and wind energy. Tibet is especially well endowed with hydroelectric energy resources, producing approximately 200 million kw of natural hydro energy annually, or about 30 percent of China's total.
CHINA'S TIBET FACTS & FIGURES 2002--Natural Resources
I didn't really research about Tibet's natural resource before you mentioned this but it seems weird that Tibetan's nomadic ancesters flourished in a forested area rather than plateau.





South Korea in particular was ruled by what mainstream calls a "despotic regime" until liberalisation in the late 80s.
That really didn't stop them from holding 1988 Summer Olympics given that politcal atmosphere at time time regarded the Soviet Union as the greatest "evil empire" and supported any regime that is opposed to international communism.

From my personal observation I would say Singapore and Hongkong did a great job in maintaining social order while doing good economically but they still score low under Freedom House's freedom index as well as criticisms from U.S State departemnt's annual Human Rights Report. So I wonder if sometimes liberal bias are actually leaning towards a state of anarchy.



Sub human scums as in tax exemption, birth control exemption, privilege in Univerysity admission as well as civil service?
If people are fussy about media control in China and a lack of diverse paties orientated politics in China Im in agreement with them. If people are saying China as a developing nation did not give Tibetans as what a British government can give to brits or an American governement can afford to give Americans Im in agreement with them.
China so far has given minority, especially Tibetans what She will not give to ethnic majority. This gap and preferential treatment far exceeds in the gap of affirmative action in the U.S.
In the UK these are already people screaming at the top of their voice for a possible "discrimination against white males" in civil service.
Looks like we can learn alot from China? Isn't it?



Im very skeptical towards the one-child policy of China and wonder if it has any relevance in today's China at all. Human Rights Group also voiced concern over police abuse of power in forced sterilisation in the past. There are also some Chinese scholars calling for the abolition of such policy.
As far as Im concerned in this thread about Tibet, Tibetans like other minority are allowed to have more than one children.

Im not sure if you will find comforts in the fact that similar violation of freedom might happen in Modern Certral Asian States, "Tsar Putin"'s modern Russia or the internal security Acts of modern Malaysia.

Given his one-sided story we might not know if he had implicated in any illegal acitivity. Quite recently there is an incident of foiled terror plan in Western China by a few who are alleged to have a connection in the East Tukistan Islamic Movement. If China, a developing nation with a military budget only 7 percent of that of the U.S, China deserves commendation for not allowing a September 11 or Madrid Bombing happening on her soil.

On a more humanistic side of the issue we will evetually see and are already seeing sociao-political liberalisation in Asia and Eastern Europe following by their economic liberalisation.

I will find sympathy in your story for an attack on China for her human rights abuse, but not related to the pro-independence course.

Unless the pro-Tibet indpendence crowds can show how Tibet will be anything decent without the communist take over in the 50s or if world powers whether UK, Canada, China, Russia or India should happily encourage separatism activities in their nation without any action taken, I fail to see the point of the alleged moral self-righteousness expressed by them.

Olympic Flame

This is hilarious, Im not a fussy person at terminology but you need to know which dialect group and how many percent of them actually speak Cantonese.
Cantonese (linguistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The official spoken version of Chinese is mandarin.
Back to the question again, in rural Tibetan areas 90% of them cannot speak mandarin or write in Chinese do face problems in employment in business districts dominated by Han Chinese.
I see the solution to the problem as state-sponsored programme to master mandarin as the language for living as well as Tibetan for their mother Tongue as heritage.
But you know, some will see this as "cultural genocide".

In U.S the police used lethal force in the L.A riot as well.
And in the piece of the news above the journalist relied heavily on Tibetans in exile's version of story.

Well, at least I did not make the claim.
I anticipate eventual socio-political liberalisation in Eastern Europen and Asia and am already witnessing the progress of it. I do not see a point in linking internal secessionist movement of these states with "freedom" after all they are trying to create ethno-states, even if it costs violence and social turmoil.

China herself is juggling with liberalisation as well as social stability and her conservative hardliners in the party and there is tremendous improvement in doing so for past 3 decades.

If China is to be criticised for "liberalising too slowly" as compared to the modern west China needs to be praised for her social stability and economic achievement in lifting millions out of poverty as compared to the disastrous modern balkanised democratic India /Pakistan or Gorbechav's Russia and Yeltsin's Russia when people are trapped in poverty as well as uncontrolled social crimes as a result of too rapid political liberalisation which the state cannot afford at that time.

Try not to assume too much.