Zak64

Unfortunately they way that they know best is brutality, oppression and murder. It's what they have been doing in Tibet since 1949 -1950.

I couldn't disagree more. There is plenty of evidence Tibet and China were separate and autonymous countries throughout most of history.

If you read 'Tears Of Blood, A Cry For Tibet, by Mary Craig, you will find that in 891 Tibet and China drew up a treaty recognising each other as sovereign states. They inscribed three stone pillars with words to the effect "Tibet and China are separate nations,and always will be. Gods, Kings and men all know it." One pillar was erected in Lhasa, one in Beijing (or whatever the Chinese capital was at that time) and one either on the then border, or equidistant betweeen the two capitals. (I don't remember all of the exact details, I leant my copy out some time ago, and it hasn't come back)

See post # 43 for more proof of Tibetan independence.

Also Tibet was recognised by cartographers as being a separate state throughout much of history.

International Campaign for Tibet: Tibet: Maps of Tibet: Captions

Also one of the tabloids recently said the British government formaly recognised the Tibetan government in 1937. But reviewing my books and googling hasn't turned up anything more on this.

I reckon it's everybody business to speak out when human rights are abused - it's something called duty of common humanity. If people hadn't spoken out against apartheit and condemned it South Africa could still be run by that inequitous system today.

The world's eyes are on the Chinese government now, and despite their rhetoric and their trolls, they are losing the battle for world public opinion! Good!

World Public Opinion

FREE TIBET

__________________
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand.

Olympic Flame

Research on Tibet prior to the Communist take over.
When the religious leaders is going to conduct a ritual, they will demand for fresh human limbs and skins from the alived ones.
Interest rate for rice grains were 60 times more rediculous than you would find in a modern bank today.

Some were indoctrinated that consuming human faeces can cure their illness.
They were lead by their spiritual leaders who are around 2% of the population with over 90% of Tibet's wealth.

Communists leaders who are opposed to this kind of brutal system of class opression liberated the masses to deliver equality.

Strangely enough some will say my sources from youtube, Australia daily or The Economist are "rubbish" and "propaganda".

Honestly I have never read 'Tears Of Blood, A Cry For Tibet" but the heading clearly shows that this writer is biased with an agenda.

For all the wealth and efforts PRC has done to improve Tibetan's lives, though it is not as heaven as London it is the best they can have in historical circumstances.

Without the PRC, Tibet would be a worst regime. Unless UK and U.S are going to send welfare cheques to an indepedent Tibet, Tibet Independence or China Bashing is useless.

Zak64

I notice that you make no effort to refute any of the facts in my posts, but rather just respond with more and more PRC propoganda. How much are they paying you to be an appologist and propagandaist for them?

BBC NEWS | dot.life | A blog about technology from BBC News | Tibet - the cyber wars

I have never heard of human sacrifice in Tibet in all of the books I have read on her. I certainly don't think Buddism encourages human sacrifice as part of it's religious practice. I think you are just spouting a load of old bullsh|t. Plain and simple. Do you have any sources to back up your outlandish claims of human sacrifice?

As for eating faeces, for once you are half way right. I have found records of Tibetans eating faeces.

A Strange Liberation Page 182. The words of Tenpa Soepa, prisoner of the Chinese gulag system in Tibet, recalling the starvation the Chinese inflicted on political prisoners.
And from page 183:
So you see, you are right! The Tibetans did eat ****, and it was the Chinese who forced them to do it!

As for your bizarre statement that Communist leaders are opposed to brutal systems!?!? Words fail me! For stupidity it ranks right up there with your 'democracy is evil' statement.

And if you've never read 'Tears of Blood' how can you say it has got an agenda?

Neither do I buy, for one instant, your ridiculous assertion that Tibet would be worse off without Chinese occupation, or that it will suddenly revert to feudalism!

As for the Chinese improving Tibetans lives, they can do that quite easily!

FREE TIBET!

__________________
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand.

Zak64

A little bit more evidence that Tibet has existed as an independent country for many hundreds of years.

Follow the link and about a third of the way down you will find links to the texts of all of the following international protocols/agreements/treaties/conventions re: Tibet and other nations.

Tibet Justice Center - Legal Materials on Tibet - Complete Table of Contents

Treaties & Conventions Relating to Tibet

Sino-Tibetan Treaty, 821/823 A.D. [371] (I ascribed the wrong date for this in an earlier posting!)

Peace Treaty Between Ladakh and Tibet at Tingmosgang (1684) [372]

Ladakhi Letter of Agreement (1842) [374]

Agreement Between Tibet and Kashmir (1852) [375]

Treaty Between Tibet and Nepal (1856) [376]

Treaty Between Nepal and Tibet (1856) [378]

Chefoo Convention (1876) [380]

Convention Relating to Burmah and Thibet (1886) [381]

Convention Between Great Britain and China Relating to Sikkim and Tibet (1890) [382]

Convention Between Great Britain and Thibet (1904) [385]

Convention Between Great Britain and China Respecting Tibet (1906) [389]

Convention Between Great Britain and Russia (1907) [391]

Agreement Between Great Britain, China and Tibet Amending Trade Regulations of 1893 (1908) [393]

Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397]

Anglo-Tibetan Declaration (1914) [399]

Convention Between Great Britain, China, and Tibet, Simla (1914) [400]

Anglo-Tibetan Trade Regulations (1914) [403]

Agreement for the Restoration of Peaceful Relations Between China and Tibet (1918) [406]

Supplementary Agreement Regarding Mutual Withdrawal of Troops and Cessation of Hostilities Between Chinese and Tibetans (1918) [409]


I hope that's not too much 'China bashing'!

FREE TIBET

__________________
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand.

youcanhandlethetruth

Ex-Communist Official Accuses China Of Staging Violent Tibet Riots

"In an interview carried on the Epoch Times website, Ming warns that the Chinese government is orchestrating some of the more violent riots in an attempt to demonize peaceful Tibetans and justify a greater crackdown."

Company News Story




Suprise, suprise !

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits(in order of Porkpies) Clippo,Wowbanger TIP, Akria,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist

Olympic Flame

Im not a historian and I have not even read the book, why should I refute such facts and I never intended to do so. My argument is not whether if something tragic or happy happened decades ago but whats best for Tibet in my opinion. Thats a holistic view Im talking about.

With an age of expectancy of 35 prior to the communist take over to 67 in the 90s i would say thats a great improvement. They are wealthier, more literate, more job competent ever than before in this globalised world.

So what do you think Tibet will become without being part of China? I dont think UK or any other country is sending their cheques over there right?

crac

At last we have some leverage over the problem of Chinese repression, with them desperate for the political kudos of hosting the olympics they can be put under pressure to clean up their actions.

Hurrah Hurrah Hurrah.

I spent some years working in a chinese culture, and got to speak to many and study their thinking about many issues.

Let me tell you one little fact from that which is very important to realise.
There is no moral injunction from their religious beliefs for them to be truthful.

Furthermore there is no percieved moral gain to be had for being truthful in Chinese culture and society in fact and this may amaze you it's quite the opposite. There is a percieved moral gain for a person to lie to another if it makes them feel more comfortable then hearing the truth.

What this does mean is that unbelievably Chinese people will lie to you all the time for your own good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

youcanhandlethetruth

"They are wealthier, more literate, more job competent ever than before in this globalised world."

Not everything that is good is judged in the langage of economics and the world economy.

More job competent ? If China (the slave model) is the saviour then that is hardly much of an improvement or goal is it ?

What you're spouting is more about the exporting and imposing of Western values onto sovereign nations, for their own selfish benefit and economic interests.

It has nothing to do with caring about Tibet or it's people.
How many sovereign nations have been the target of the US and invaded since WWII ?
Fourty-something at least ! And who supported Mao ? Three guesses !

I suppose you think the Iraqi's are more "free" now than before the "liberation" ?
Try telling that to the million or so who have died, or those that are alive now and and have no life whatsoever, let alone clean water or electricity.

So yes, I agree with zak's well informed opinion not a propaganda merchant whose opinions are so riduculous it's laughable.

Yes indeed - how much are they really paying you ?

Don't tell me - you actually care deeply about the Chinese and US governments having total control over sovereign nations.......

So by your argument, any country can impose itself on another, if they think it's in that country's best interests to be overtaken ?

Bull !

__________________
Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits(in order of Porkpies) Clippo,Wowbanger TIP, Akria,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist

crac

Why people apologise for China, well it's mostly because they are Chinese because what is important in Chinese morality is not truth but loyalty to everything which stands as an authority in their lives. So they are taught loyalty as the highest morality. Actually it's not loyalty it's slavish obediance.

So Chinese people will feel morally good about misrepresenting the facts especially to foreigners to confuse them and prevent them having any influence in their country.

China has a particular horror of foreign influence and this is because the foreigners are a different colour, they smell different and their hair is different and they have different religious beliefs, different body size or type,,, that sort of thing.

I lived and worked amoungst chinese people in a chinese culture for several years so i do know what i speak of. The apologists for China must be held up to the highest standard of truth as my culture demands because without truth we are all just fools.

People must know that unless we get at the truth and refuse this deliberate obfuscation of the facts of what is happening in Tibet then pressure cannot be brought to bear effectively.

Olympic Flame

Finally there is something common we can talk about instead of barking on the wrong tree which has little to do with Tibet or China's reality and future. I wont call it a slave model though I recognise that they have weaker unions, ironically in a socialist country and their past history of exports have been relied on low cost manufactured goods.

The same could be said about Japan who in the 60s and 70s are known for making cheap quality cars in comparison to the U.S but it quickly changed in the 80s when they are challenging and even surpassing U.S in that aspect.

This is where I might agree with you to a certain extend. China has her own interest in Tibet, just like any other nation who are willing to kowtou to secessionist activities and separatism.

U.S is quite opposed to Mao in the beginning. U.S supported the Chinese Nationalist(KMP) in the chinese civil war and continued to support ROC's military and economy in Taiwan after ww2, even till now. CIA even trained Tibetans to fight against the Chinese communists.(try goggle that).Things started to change when Nixon decided to meet with the Chinese leaders when they realised that it is important for a strategic relationship with China after the Sino-Soviet split.

Definitely not. I believe in diplomacy. I think candidate Ron Paul had similar ideas.
Dictatorship is not nice. Anarchy is worst.
After all,Iraq is sovereign country, unlike Tibet, even the most anti-China scholar can only describe China's claim over Tibet is "murky".

He quoted heavily from the Free Tibet crowds while I rarely used China's official state's media's assessment.

Big houses, beautiful cars and some page 3 girls. Guess what else?

I have done no other acitivity other than typing in front of my computer. You have given credits to my sincerity which I dont deserve.

To give a general response to this question it is no.
Yes you are right in that and I dont consider Tibetans getting better life as the only reason to support China. But this is something Free Tibet crowds never going to mention.
China did not start to "invade" Tibet in the 50s. So were Republic of China, Qing, Ming, Yuan and Tang who see Tibet as a part of greater China. Unless we should condemn the historical Chinese assimilation and interaction with Tibetans I dont see a point in criticisng PRC who merely inherited this. Is this a hyprocrisy?

Hence China's claim on Tibet is no more less rightful than the British Union, Russian's posession of Siberia and U.S posession of the state of Texas which we see today as rightful and legal. Is this another hyprocrisy meant to attack China for anyother motive rather than "liberating Tibet"?