Way of democratization a-la USA

Zaratustra · 12-11-2007, 03:00 PM

What a chaos there is in Georgia now. They’ve closed nearly all mass media agencies. Their policemen on the plea of state of emergency are beating people within an inch of their life right in the streets and poison inhabitants with chemical weapons if they dare to express protest against “democratic” regime of Saakashvili. And those cutthroats are in American combat gear with American weapons. So that it becomes quite clear what’s going on.
That’s just one more stage of that “democratization” US so like to carry out in countries they are interested in strategically. Thus US are going to use Georgia as base for their further invasion into Iran. And in East Europe they are fussing with their ABM system. And we can see the same (to a greater or lesser extent) human rights trampling there. Thus Poland is contesting part of declaration of human rights where it says about total prohibition of discrimination. Rumania announced Moldavian language artificial and unneeded. In Bulgaria they forbid Muslim girls wearing hijab in schools. And violation of Baltic national minorities rights criticized van der Linden.
Recent situation in Georgia is just most aggravated. So it shows most clear of all what “democracy” impose into Europe great US friends.

Aardvark · 12-11-2007, 11:18 PM

Georgia intends to have fresh elections in the New Year. In all probability they will be observed by the OSCE and the CIS.

Georgia doesn't have a land border with Iran and troops would have to travel through Armenia or pass over its airspace. Armenia and Georgia are not particularly friendly at the moment.

The US is not imposing democracy. The US is only one of 56 countries to have signed the Copenhagen Document. That is the aspirational basis of the evolving democracies in the former Soviet Union and the Balkans (see: Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - Homepage ).

Some countries have a long way to go and Georgia is one of them, but they do have a permanent OSCE office in Tbilisi and they have had OSCE border monitoring on the Chechen border to keep an eye on the situation. The OSCE is monitoring and advising on the internal disputes and human rights within Georgia.

The Georgian army is not entirely kitted out with US equipment, but still has a large amount of former Soviet material. If they have US kit then it was probably provided at a discount as part of a deal to modernise the army (former Soviet forces had a completely different approach to their troops and their equipment). Would you prefer the Georgian troops to be kitted by Russia or China?

Elements of the Georgian armed forces, along with the Azeris and the Armenians, are undergoing NATO training in the Czech Republic. The UK, in the form of Royal Marines, provides some of that training. The US has provided training and equipment through 'twinning' arrangements between US units and South Caucasian units.

Neither the US nor Russia wants the South Caucasus to erupt into war, again, but Georgia and Russia are not getting on particularly well, especially after a Russian rocket/bomb landed on Georgian territory a few weeks ago.

There is considerably less human rights trampling in the former Soviet/Warsaw Pact countries in the EU than there was under the former regimes. Lithuania has accepted the ethnic minorities as equal citizens, but Latvia and Estonia have placed restrictions on the descendants of Soviet invaders - they can't vote and don't have a full passport. They are allowed to become full citizens if they learn the national language,take a history test and accept that the invasions as part of the Molatov-Ribbentrop Pact were illegal under international law (this was commented on in the OSCE/ODIHR final statement on the Latvian Parliamentary Elections in 2006).

Moldavian/Moldovan is a Rumanian dialect. Most Moldovans still speak Russian in any event.

Bulgaria is a secular state and is perfectly entitled to ban the wearing of hijabs or other expressions of religious identity in schools where they might be seen as divisive. Historically the hijab was not part of the dress of Balkan Muslim women (about 20-25% of Bulgaria's population are ethnic Turks with Islamic roots). Bulgaria is part of the EU and is a signatory to the ECHR.

Hope this addresses your points.

Independent UKIP · 12-11-2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Georgia intends to have fresh elections in the New Year. In all probability they will be observed by the OSCE and the CIS.

It appears that all non-government TV stations are currently suppressed. I don't know about non-government newspapers. Do you know how far in advance of the elections does that suppression have to end for the two organisations you mentioned to be able to even conceive the possibility that the elections were 'free and fair' or whatever term they use meaning the same in substance? Thanks.

Edit: Oh, and regarding discounted US equipment; I would rather they pay market rates and buy British if that is best. I can think of far better ways the US can financially support Georgia than by providing it with discounted military equipment.

Aardvark · 13-11-2007, 10:58 AM

IU: I agree on the discounted military equipment, but it is a loss leader as you know. The real money is made on spares, servicing and replacement.

The CIS (Confederation of Independent States) is less independent than OSCE and sees fairness where the OSCE doesn't. CIS observers go to CIS countries and seem to come up with the result the Russians want. They are not supposed to be biased and observers are not 'allowed' to have commercial interests in the country to be observed, but the owner of the largest aluminium company in Kazakhstan (and a friend of the President) was a senior member of the CIS delegation to that country.

OSCE/ODIHR will observe whether the press is suppressed or not, but will almost certainly comment adversely. The ODIHR media analysts set up a room where they monitor all the output of selected TV and radio stations and read major national newspapers to make an assessment of the media in the host country. Long-term observers also gather local newspapers from their area of operations and interview a selection of broadcasters, editors and journalists. If people are in hiding or are oppressed then it is difficult, but not impossible, to get the interviews. Anything of significance goes into the ODIHR statements - if you go to Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - Elections and look at the reports of recent elections you will see the sort of comments that are made (Kazakhstan has a particularly rigid media law that makes opposition difficult and it was commented upon).

ODIHR only says elections are 'free and fair' if that is the assessment of the observers (final reports are better than preliminary statements for the overall view).

Wolfie Smith · 20-11-2007, 08:03 PM

The US does have an interest in Georgia, and the suppression of civil society is usually a sign of a soon to be increased US 'participation' in the "democratisation process".

Next step will be financial rewards to Georgian politcians for 'opening up a free market', which is code for 'selling off the crown jewels cheap' to US tax-payer subsidised corporations.

Aardvark · 21-11-2007, 07:08 PM

The suppression of civil society is also an indicator of a soon to be increased Russian participation in the democratisation process.

Wolfie Smith · 23-11-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The suppression of civil society is also an indicator of a soon to be increased Russian participation in the democratisation process.

Are that that subtle? They usually just shoot their political enemies and deport the indigenous population...

The similarities between Communism and Islam are striking, huh?

Aardvark · 23-11-2007, 08:51 PM

Not sure. In which country have Islamists deported the indigenous population.? They've killed and absorbed by conversion the populace of most of the lands that are now Islamic. The trick was to allow people to live, but tax them at punitive rates for not being Muslim or conscript the non-Muslim boys. All Muslims, as with all modern world religions, are descended from peoples who weren't Muslim, often in what we might consider very recent history.

I assume the CIS will observe the Georgian elections in the first week in January. The OSCE are invited.

Independent UKIP: This might partially answer your question:

OSCE Press release - OSCE media freedom representative says optimistic about re-opening of suspended Imedi TV after visit to Georgia

Independent UKIP · 24-11-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Independent UKIP: This might partially answer your question:

OSCE Press release - OSCE media freedom representative says optimistic about re-opening of suspended Imedi TV after visit to Georgia

Thanks for the link Aardvark.

12-11-2007, 03:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
Zaratustra Newbie Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1	Way of democratization a-la USA What a chaos there is in Georgia now. They’ve closed nearly all mass media agencies. Their policemen on the plea of state of emergency are beating people within an inch of their life right in the streets and poison inhabitants with chemical weapons if they dare to express protest against “democratic” regime of Saakashvili. And those cutthroats are in American combat gear with American weapons. So that it becomes quite clear what’s going on. That’s just one more stage of that “democratization” US so like to carry out in countries they are interested in strategically. Thus US are going to use Georgia as base for their further invasion into Iran. And in East Europe they are fussing with their ABM system. And we can see the same (to a greater or lesser extent) human rights trampling there. Thus Poland is contesting part of declaration of human rights where it says about total prohibition of discrimination. Rumania announced Moldavian language artificial and unneeded. In Bulgaria they forbid Muslim girls wearing hijab in schools. And violation of Baltic national minorities rights criticized van der Linden. Recent situation in Georgia is just most aggravated. So it shows most clear of all what “democracy” impose into Europe great US friends.

12-11-2007, 11:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,974	Georgia intends to have fresh elections in the New Year. In all probability they will be observed by the OSCE and the CIS. Georgia doesn't have a land border with Iran and troops would have to travel through Armenia or pass over its airspace. Armenia and Georgia are not particularly friendly at the moment. The US is not imposing democracy. The US is only one of 56 countries to have signed the Copenhagen Document. That is the aspirational basis of the evolving democracies in the former Soviet Union and the Balkans (see: Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - Homepage ). Some countries have a long way to go and Georgia is one of them, but they do have a permanent OSCE office in Tbilisi and they have had OSCE border monitoring on the Chechen border to keep an eye on the situation. The OSCE is monitoring and advising on the internal disputes and human rights within Georgia. The Georgian army is not entirely kitted out with US equipment, but still has a large amount of former Soviet material. If they have US kit then it was probably provided at a discount as part of a deal to modernise the army (former Soviet forces had a completely different approach to their troops and their equipment). Would you prefer the Georgian troops to be kitted by Russia or China? Elements of the Georgian armed forces, along with the Azeris and the Armenians, are undergoing NATO training in the Czech Republic. The UK, in the form of Royal Marines, provides some of that training. The US has provided training and equipment through 'twinning' arrangements between US units and South Caucasian units. Neither the US nor Russia wants the South Caucasus to erupt into war, again, but Georgia and Russia are not getting on particularly well, especially after a Russian rocket/bomb landed on Georgian territory a few weeks ago. There is considerably less human rights trampling in the former Soviet/Warsaw Pact countries in the EU than there was under the former regimes. Lithuania has accepted the ethnic minorities as equal citizens, but Latvia and Estonia have placed restrictions on the descendants of Soviet invaders - they can't vote and don't have a full passport. They are allowed to become full citizens if they learn the national language,take a history test and accept that the invasions as part of the Molatov-Ribbentrop Pact were illegal under international law (this was commented on in the OSCE/ODIHR final statement on the Latvian Parliamentary Elections in 2006). Moldavian/Moldovan is a Rumanian dialect. Most Moldovans still speak Russian in any event. Bulgaria is a secular state and is perfectly entitled to ban the wearing of hijabs or other expressions of religious identity in schools where they might be seen as divisive. Historically the hijab was not part of the dress of Balkan Muslim women (about 20-25% of Bulgaria's population are ethnic Turks with Islamic roots). Bulgaria is part of the EU and is a signatory to the ECHR. Hope this addresses your points. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

13-11-2007, 10:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,974	IU: I agree on the discounted military equipment, but it is a loss leader as you know. The real money is made on spares, servicing and replacement. The CIS (Confederation of Independent States) is less independent than OSCE and sees fairness where the OSCE doesn't. CIS observers go to CIS countries and seem to come up with the result the Russians want. They are not supposed to be biased and observers are not 'allowed' to have commercial interests in the country to be observed, but the owner of the largest aluminium company in Kazakhstan (and a friend of the President) was a senior member of the CIS delegation to that country. OSCE/ODIHR will observe whether the press is suppressed or not, but will almost certainly comment adversely. The ODIHR media analysts set up a room where they monitor all the output of selected TV and radio stations and read major national newspapers to make an assessment of the media in the host country. Long-term observers also gather local newspapers from their area of operations and interview a selection of broadcasters, editors and journalists. If people are in hiding or are oppressed then it is difficult, but not impossible, to get the interviews. Anything of significance goes into the ODIHR statements - if you go to Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights - Elections and look at the reports of recent elections you will see the sort of comments that are made (Kazakhstan has a particularly rigid media law that makes opposition difficult and it was commented upon). ODIHR only says elections are 'free and fair' if that is the assessment of the observers (final reports are better than preliminary statements for the overall view). __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 13-11-2007 at 07:34 PM.

21-11-2007, 07:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,974	The suppression of civil society is also an indicator of a soon to be increased Russian participation in the democratisation process. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

23-11-2007, 08:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,974	Not sure. In which country have Islamists deported the indigenous population.? They've killed and absorbed by conversion the populace of most of the lands that are now Islamic. The trick was to allow people to live, but tax them at punitive rates for not being Muslim or conscript the non-Muslim boys. All Muslims, as with all modern world religions, are descended from peoples who weren't Muslim, often in what we might consider very recent history. I assume the CIS will observe the Georgian elections in the first week in January. The OSCE are invited. Independent UKIP: This might partially answer your question: OSCE Press release - OSCE media freedom representative says optimistic about re-opening of suspended Imedi TV after visit to Georgia __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

20-11-2007, 08:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
Wolfie Smith Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 82	The US does have an interest in Georgia, and the suppression of civil society is usually a sign of a soon to be increased US 'participation' in the "democratisation process". Next step will be financial rewards to Georgian politcians for 'opening up a free market', which is code for 'selling off the crown jewels cheap' to US tax-payer subsidised corporations.

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