Aardvark

December 26th, as the bulk of the western world is relaxing, Israel tears up all agreements and continues to flout international law. No road map, no peace with the Palestinians just more unlawful settlement in illegally occupied territory.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061226...r_061226135650

Andrew Constantine

[quote="Aardvark"] December 26th, as the bulk of the western world is relaxing, Israel tears up all agreements and continues to flout international law. No road map, no peace with the Palestinians just more unlawful settlement in illegally occupied territory.[quote}

Is it not the general point at stake that Israel is faced by terrorist organisations (Hamas, al Queda) and terrorist states (Iran, Syria) that wish to destroy her and her people? In the meantime, the Israeli government takes robust actions to defend her borders? Good for them too.

Aardvark

The threats to Israel are the result of Israel's creation contrary to the terms of the Balfour Declaration and the illegal occupation of the Golan, Gaza and the West Bank.

Hamas would barely exist if Israel had not built the settlements, stolen land at gunpoint, killed thousands of Palestinians during the occupation and smashed the Palestinian Authority infrastructure.

For the Israelis to agree on Saturday not to build any new settlements and then to announce one on Tuesday is not acceptable diplomatic practice. How can any state in the world deal with Israel when the country is run by such duplicitous people? All the settlements contravene international law as does the annexation of Jerusalem and its hinterland to create a new capital city in occupied territory.

The illegal settlement of the Jordan Valley, an area that the Israelis intended to retain for 100 years under Camp David, is not strengthening borders. That is like the UK placing settlers in Lille to protect the Channel Tunnel entrance in Folkestone (remember the English claim to Calais is more recent and more real than the claim by east European Kazars to settle on Arab lands in the Middle East just because they converted to Judaism whilst the Jews in Palestine converted to Christianity and Islam hundreds of years previously).

Israel 'strengthens' it's borders by bulldozing Arab, not Jewish, homes and building a wall (not fence) on Arab, not Jewish, land. Settlements are built that contravene the Geneva Convention in order to move Americans of east European Kazar ancestry into Arab heartlands.

Iran has no nuclear weapons pointed at Israel, nor does it own any weapons capable of hitting Israeli soil. Israel has hundreds of nuclear devices on the admission of its own scientists. I suspect, based on an understanding of military tactics obtained as an officer in our military, that some of Israel's nuclear devices are targetted on Iran and Syria.

g hall

Looking at the problem I blame the Romans and the Diaspora in 163. A.D.
Although the Isrealies dont help themselves the Arabs etc have trried wiping them out fairly often and at least Israel is a Democracy unlike some of the states that have tried destroying it
As regards bulldozing homes I remember Israeli settlements being demolished
So At the moment Iran has no nukes - but for how long and given their track record who would be next after Israel
And Israel has hundreds I'll bet they'll be pleased to know that.
Where do you think Hamas Hizbollah etc get the rockets they indiscriminitly launch at civilian targets in Israel ? and when the Iranians start up any Reactor I just wonder how long before these rockets are plutonium enhanced

Aardvark

Lebanon was a functioning democracy a long time ago, but after the various incursions by neighbours such as Israel the country was put back a few years. Lebanon is still a democracy- one man/woman, one vote - international observersdeclaring elections fair etc. Palestine is a democracy. It is wrong to accuse a country of not being a democracy just because the electorate vote in someone you disagree with. Hamas are terrorists in the way that the Stern Gang and the Irgun were.

The Israeli settlements are, without exception, illegal under international law. The Israeli government has removed some of the settlements, but it supports a lot more. I assume that all those who support Israeli settlement would welcome gypsies and travellers taking over their gardens with the support of the police and without proper compensation. The Palestinian homes which have been bulldozed often predate the existence of the state of Israel and some of those destroyed in the Old City predated the Ottoman Empire! There is no comparison between removing an Arab from his ancestral home and moving a bunch of American owned caravans illegally parked at a crossroads or on a hill top.

The idea that people scattered in the Diaspora and intermarried with Slavic tribes have a prior right to Palestine over those who converted from Judaism to other religions is silly in the extreme. It is sillier still to move a bunch of people who often retain US citizenship and property in the US to the Jordan Valley in the pretence that they are strengthening the border of Israel when in fact they aren't even in the country and Jordan has already agreed not to waste time and effort invading.

The Israelis have plutonium enhanced warheads. They do indeed have several hundred nuclear devices; unlike Iran and Iraq the Israelis have never allowed the IAEA to monitor their nuclear sites and refuse cooperation to all international observers, with the rare exception of the prison observers allowed under the Ramallah Agreement.

g hall

What screwed up Lebanon - The Palestinans in the 1970's

As for the Diaspora being silly - if it had not happened where would we be now

The Israeli settlements happened because the Arab states lost wars that they started and the Israelis needed to protect themselves.

Hamas are not the same as Irgun and the Stern gang because they want to totally eradicate the Israelis whereas Irgun and the Stern wanted a state that they had been promised after WWII and the holocaust

Instead of making silly comparisions grow up and accept that BOTH sides need to compromise and quick otherwise religous fanatics on both sides will kill us all.

People of all types need to live together, we've only one planet - they also need to help each other in their respective homelands and not go round saying " My gods bigger then your god"

Aardvark

I didn't say that the Diaspora was silly, I said that giving priority to live in Palestine to people from the Diaspora is silly. That is like saying that only the Celts can occupy the British Isles and all those of us who arrived in the last 1500 years have to move to Germany and Denmark etc. The Diaspora consists not only of those who were scattered by the Romans, but also those who were converted to Judaism and whose ancestors didn't come from Palestine in the first place. The Arabs are desccended from Jews and Christians, inter alia, who convertd to Islam; they have a right to keep their homes. That's what makes it stupid.

You've never been to Israel. How does Gilo protect anybody from the Palestinians? Does Ma'ale Adumim, the Jerusalem suburb built on Palestinian land protect Israel? Of course not. What about the 'deserted' settlements - settlements that have been built but never occupied - how do they protect anybody? It's about land grabs.

The state was not promised after WWII and the holocaust. Read Tom Segev's book - 'One Palestine Complete' or 'From Beirut to Jerusalem' or 'An Israel Reader'. Read the Balfour Declaration. Do not tell me to grow up when you have never studied the Middle East and not worked there, as I have.

The Stern Gang and the Irgun and the other Jewish terror groups have their origins before the rise of Hitler. David Ben Gurion spent the war in Palestine as did all of the other terrorist leaders. Their families had arrived during the Ottoman period and during the Mandate.

It's not about saying my God's bigger than your God, or as Yasser Arafat put it, arguing over imaginary friends. There needs to be compromise, but the Israelis have never really compromised on anything. Camp David was not as generous as the Israelis would have you believe; if only anybody bothered to read the terms.

Yes, we are living on one planet, but for God's sake don't tell the Israelis that because they'll never believe you.

g hall

Yassar Arafat had 90% of his demands met and didn't sign the agreement Why?

As I said BOTH sides need to compromise, all Aardvark has argued is that it's all down to the nasty Israelis

Militant Islam will destroy the world as they believe that they will go to paradise so earthly delights don't matter (How often do children of the Palestinian leadership become suicide bombers?)

No I've never been to the middles east - but I have discussed problems there with both Jewish and Arab friends (and the common theme was that they have to cooperate

conan

Quite so. The arabs are committed to the destruction of Israel and Hamas and Hezbollah both have genocidal ambitions. Nasrallah, the leader of hezbollah, has stated that he would like to see all jews settling in Israel because that would save Hezbollah the trouble of hunting them down in the rest of the world.
Given that the arabs are determined on permanent war with Israel, Israel has to be at war with them. There is no reason why they shouldn't confiscate Arab land and build settlements on it, and it does give the arabs an incentive to make peace.