Free Trade - no thanks!

B.A.Ware · 03-10-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

What, any of them. Even if they are democracies who treat their people O.K?

I do not advocate protectionism but fairness. If they supply goods manufactured to the same standards we have to adhere to that is different but what about the cost of living in these countries, in India you can live like a king for £50 a week is it fair that the average British worker needs £200 a week to live on, how do you square that circle.

andypandy · 03-10-2006, 04:47 PM

Tax cuts are always aimed at the rich and the business community, because generally they see little benefit from any social projects designed to redistribute wealth. I dare say that indirect taxes such as sales taxes and the like would still remain high under UKIP, and it is these taxes which are disproportionately aimed at lower paid groups which pay a higher percentage of net income relative to taxes paid compared with the higher earners. It also does not answer my point that UKIP is admitting that it wants to borrow up to an additional £30 billion A YEAR to fund these tax cuts.

All borrowing incurs a percentage of interest to be paid back, which itself has to be raised from, amongst other places, taxes. This creates a deferred debt to future generations Unless UKIP is proposing some form of interest free loan system outside of the present usury system of money creation, then I could not support any government wishing to increase public sector debt.

With all the acclaimed benefits from EU withdrawal how can any future UKIP government explain away the possibility of an extra £120 billion borrowed in the first four years of independence?

As for free trade, there is no such thing and never has been. If duties on imports were designed to redress the costs of production differences from an exporting state to the importing state, then we would need duties of several hundred percent on the likes of Chinese goods just to bring relative values up to a level playing field. This is long overdue.

eublues · 03-10-2006, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Free trade is always good

Surely not always.

Do any countries practice this? I think not: only in specified areas of trade and for a specified period into the future.

The EU certainly doesn't practice this with the wider world - nor does the USA, China, India, Japan, etc.

andypandy · 03-10-2006, 05:01 PM

Spot on, it should be about FAIR trade not FREE trade.

mkpdavies · 03-10-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

I do not advocate protectionism but fairness. If they supply goods manufactured to the same standards we have to adhere to that is different but what about the cost of living in these countries, in India you can live like a king for £50 a week is it fair that the average British worker needs £200 a week to live on, how do you square that circle.

Get their standards up and functioning as a fully developed country and they will soon see their wages going up too. In the meantime, Britain has to play it's cards right and invest in these places.

Most of the people who are independent traders on EBAY, wouldn't be able to do so if it wasn't for ultra cheap goods from these countries.

Manufacturing is just one phase of the money making cycle. Britain can take advantage of other areas to get itself a good deal, aswell as helping the other countries flourish with capital and trade.

Cutting all those benefits, just to maintain an artificial manufacturing base would be nuts.

Sure we should make sure Britain can provide certain things for itself, but other than that, bring on the free trade from other friendly democratic countries.

eublues · 03-10-2006, 05:26 PM

The USA has quite high tariff barriers against imported cars.

OK, if its own car makers are hopeless they can't prop them up for ever, but in practice the USA has managed to maintain a good level of US-owned car manufacturing (and associated skills and related sectors) and it has caused non-US car companies keen to sell there to open manufacturing plants in the US (eg BMW).

Free trade often promotes mutual prosperity but it is not an iron law, and it has to be by mutual continuing consent.

If the UK had its own fishing industry again (because we have left the EU!), there is no particular reason why we should allow unrestricted sale of fish from elsewhere which could wipe out a strategically important industry, only to find that the non-UK supplier now has a strangle-hold on us and we have lost the means to supply ourselves.

mkpdavies · 03-10-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

OK, if its own car makers are hopeless

Not a good advert for protectionism. No one buys American cars because of this. So the American car industry is limited and poor and the people of America get a **** choice.

Hence American car companies are now begining to look very sick.

eublues · 03-10-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

No one buys American cars

When I made my first visit to the USA last January the roads were full of cars by Ford or GM (OK a lower proportion than 10 years ago).

The newspaper ads there showed that a car that would cost £18000 here would cost about £12000 there. So their way of managing things in that area of their economy hardly seems that disastrous.

mkpdavies · 03-10-2006, 06:28 PM

Depends if you like driving **** cars or not.

Their car companies are laying off loads of staff at the moment.

mkpdavies · 03-10-2006, 06:31 PM

What makes it worse in America, is they are shipping all their production down to cheaper Mexico. So they get all of the **** parts of protectionsim and all of the **** parts of free trade too.

Lose lose.

03-10-2006, 06:28 PM	#19 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	Depends if you like driving **** cars or not. Their car companies are laying off loads of staff at the moment. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

03-10-2006, 06:31 PM	#20 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	What makes it worse in America, is they are shipping all their production down to cheaper Mexico. So they get all of the ** parts of protectionsim and all of the ** parts of free trade too. Lose lose. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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03-10-2006, 04:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
andypandy Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 880	Tax cuts are always aimed at the rich and the business community, because generally they see little benefit from any social projects designed to redistribute wealth. I dare say that indirect taxes such as sales taxes and the like would still remain high under UKIP, and it is these taxes which are disproportionately aimed at lower paid groups which pay a higher percentage of net income relative to taxes paid compared with the higher earners. It also does not answer my point that UKIP is admitting that it wants to borrow up to an additional £30 billion A YEAR to fund these tax cuts. All borrowing incurs a percentage of interest to be paid back, which itself has to be raised from, amongst other places, taxes. This creates a deferred debt to future generations Unless UKIP is proposing some form of interest free loan system outside of the present usury system of money creation, then I could not support any government wishing to increase public sector debt. With all the acclaimed benefits from EU withdrawal how can any future UKIP government explain away the possibility of an extra £120 billion borrowed in the first four years of independence? As for free trade, there is no such thing and never has been. If duties on imports were designed to redress the costs of production differences from an exporting state to the importing state, then we would need duties of several hundred percent on the likes of Chinese goods just to bring relative values up to a level playing field. This is long overdue.

03-10-2006, 05:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
andypandy Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 880	Spot on, it should be about FAIR trade not FREE trade.

03-10-2006, 05:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,102	The USA has quite high tariff barriers against imported cars. OK, if its own car makers are hopeless they can't prop them up for ever, but in practice the USA has managed to maintain a good level of US-owned car manufacturing (and associated skills and related sectors) and it has caused non-US car companies keen to sell there to open manufacturing plants in the US (eg BMW). Free trade often promotes mutual prosperity but it is not an iron law, and it has to be by mutual continuing consent. If the UK had its own fishing industry again (because we have left the EU!), there is no particular reason why we should allow unrestricted sale of fish from elsewhere which could wipe out a strategically important industry, only to find that the non-UK supplier now has a strangle-hold on us and we have lost the means to supply ourselves.