Israel refuses to negotiate over captured soldier

Mikeuk · 12-07-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondy

It is very un-fair and very Un-American to disregard or diminish someone's information or try to discredit that person as a reliable source on the basis of where they were born or where they live.

He's not American; he's British.

Watch the great American movie The Patriot to learn how evil Brits will stoop to every conceivable treacherous and un-American action including stealing candy from kids, incinerating cute teddybears, and silently breaking wind in a sneaky manner behind innocent victims. :twisted:

blondy · 12-07-2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondy

It is very un-fair and very Un-American to disregard or diminish someone's information or try to discredit that person as a reliable source on the basis of where they were born or where they live.

He's not American; he's British.

Watch the great American movie The Patriot to learn how evil Brits will stoop to every conceivable treacherous and un-American action including stealing candy from kids, incinerating cute teddybears, and silently breaking wind in a sneaky manner behind innocent victims. :twisted:

Thank you for interceding on his behalf in such a good natured manner. If you hadn't I would be forced to believe he was completely devoid of redeeming qualities.

Aardvark · 12-07-2006, 11:41 PM

As Mike notes, I am indeed British (TVM Mike, I'll buy you a beer).

I only moved information from one part of the Internet to another. www.whois.co.uk is a public access source of ownership of web sites. If you own a website then your presence on the web is public.

I don't say that everything that is published on this website is wrong, but there is potential for bias (to use a legal term) when the author discusses the Palestinian question. One of the earlier suicide bombs took place in the suburb of Kfar Saba and many residents are understandably anti-Palestinian.

The point I made was that the quoted source is not without bias.

blondy · 13-07-2006, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

As Mike notes, I am indeed British (TVM Mike, I'll buy you a beer).

I only moved information from one part of the Internet to another. www.whois.co.uk is a public access source of ownership of web sites. If you own a website then your presence on the web is public.

I don't say that everything that is published on this website is wrong, but there is potential for bias (to use a legal term) when the author discusses the Palestinian question. One of the earlier suicide bombs took place in the suburb of Kfar Saba and many residents are understandably anti-Palestinian.

The point I made was that the quoted source is not without bias.

Thank you. I am gratified by your response.

Here are some quotes and info from the Koran taken from Islamwatch.com

Quote:

The Goal of Islam: A Mission to the World

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:25 am** *Post subject: The Goal of Islam: A Mission to the World

***

Notes and Quotes on Islam's Ultimate Goal

Understanding Islam requires knowing its goal. Throughout the world today we see Islamic tyranny, terrorism, political and economic jihad, rioting and mayhem, injustice, and human rights violations. This has been going on for the past approximately 1400 years, beginning with Mohammad’s rise to power. It is impossible to make sense out all of this without first understanding the actual beliefs and goals of Islamists. Simply put, Islam’s goal is to conquer the entire world, all of humankind, by force if necessary, to set up Koranic law, convert as many people to Islam as possible, and to destroy polytheism and disbelief. Islam is an inherently imperialistic enterprise. These notes present information about Islam's goal and the means permitted to achieve it.

Note On Terminology:

There is also some confusion over the Koran’s [English translated] terminology, with some people giving terms like “persecution” and “oppression” modern secular western meanings (see 8:39 and 2:193 below, “fitnah”). For example, in recent years some progressive reformist Muslim thinkers have adopted modern “western” interpretations of these terms. In fact, fitnah was a broad category that included not just religious persecution, but chiefly referred to disbelief, idolatry, polytheism, or opposition to Islam. Thus, terms such as oppression or “persecution”, Islamically-defined, differ in meaning from how Amnesty International or the U.N. might use the term today.

Reformists overall have only had a small impact on mainstream Islam, which is still controlled largely by Islamists. Islamists tend to use the classical and original interpretations of the words of the Koran. Here are some original citations from the Koran, Hadith, and Sira, and classical interpretation (tafsir) on the Means and Goals of Islam.

What is Fighting in Allah’s Cause? Jihad is Fighting to Make Allah’s Religion Dominant, Victorious, Supreme.

4:74 "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
{al-Jalalayn, tafsir: So let them fight in the way of God, to elevate His religion, those who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of God and is slain, dies a martyr, or conquers, overcomes his enemy, We shall give him a great wage, a plentiful reward}.

4:75. "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."

4:76 "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak."{al-Jalalayn, tafsir: Those who believe fight in the way of God, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of a false deity, Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan, the supporters of his religion and you will defeat them with the strength you draw from God; surely the plotting of Satan, against believers, is ever feeble, of no substance, and cannot stand up to God's plotting against the disbelievers}.

4:69 "Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!"

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 125: Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah's cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness." The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause." (also see Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 355).

Sahih Muslim, Book 020, Number 4684 (also 4685, 4686, 4687):
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Musa Ash'ari that a desert Arab came to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and another fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valour in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the cause of God? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the way of Allah.

Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. I believe in his word. We will Fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads and make enemies of friends."

Ibn Ishaq:572 "Muhammad is the man, an Apostle of my Lord. Evil was the state of our enemy so they lost the day. Fortunes change and we came upon them like lions from the thickets. The armies of Allah came openly, flying at them in rage, so they could not get away. We destroyed them and forced them to surrender. In the former days there was no battle like this; their blood flowed freely. We slew them and left them in the dust. Those who escaped were choked with terror. A multitude of them were slain. This is Allah's war in which those who do not accept Islam will have no helper. War destroyed the tribe and fate the clan."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We Fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will Fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 73:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa: Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." (Also see Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4314.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50: Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Sahih Muslim, Book 020, Number 4639 (also 4639-4644): It has been narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Leaving (for Jihad) in the way of Allah in the morning or in the evening (will merit a reward) better than the world and all that is in it.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."

Sahih Muslim, Book 020, Number 4645:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id Khudri that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said (to him): Abu Sa'id, whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his religion and Mubammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise. He (Abu Sa'id) wondered at it and said: Messenger of Allah, repeat it for me. He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44: Narrated Abu Huraira: A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, “I do not find such a deed.” Then he added, “Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?” The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, “The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope.”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:
Narrated Ibn Aun: I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn 'Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn 'Umar was in that army.

[...]

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.

Gaining and Defending Territory For Allah’s Religion.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Disbelievers produce fitnah and fasad (mischief, corruption) on earth, so Allah uses the believers to keep the disbelievers and their mischief in check (2:251).

Allah reduces the land occupied by the disbelievers (13:41, 21:44).

He makes (some) believers live in the land of the disbelievers (14:13-14), referred to as Land/House of War. The land of the disbelievers is granted by Allah to be inherited by believers so they (believers) may establish the authority of Allah (24:55), making it Land/House of Islam.

Land can be taken from the non-Muslims; it is inherited by Muslims (33:27). Once land is Land of Islam, it remains so forever as far as Allah is concerned; if lost to the enemy, it must be regained. Non-Muslims must be banned from any land that was ever Islamic (21:95).

Mission to the World: All Humankind Must be Ruled by Islamic Law.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me.
1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.
2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.
3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.
4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).
5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.

Ibn Kathir's tafsir of 34:28

Mikeuk · 13-07-2006, 06:41 AM

That was a real thread-pooper :evil:

blondy · 13-07-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeuk

That was a real thread-pooper :evil:

Perhaps you are right.

Oh, geez! I just tried to move that to start a whole new thread with it but it can't be changed now.

ops:

ReLB71 · 13-07-2006, 11:40 AM

Does Israel have the right to defend her sovereign territory from an armed aggressor (terrorist or other wise)?

Does Israel have the right to retaliate against armed agressors (terrorist or other wise) who have openly attacked & made armed incursions in to Israeli sovereign territory?

Does Israel have the right to defend & protect her citizens (this to include members of the military) in face of these armed attacks by an enemy intent upon provoking an armed conflict?

Aardvark · 13-07-2006, 12:08 PM

Israel has the same right to defend her sovereign territory as all other states. Although I doubt that the Hizbollah attack had the support of the majority of the Lebanese Government, Israel does have the duty to protect its citizens within its own borders and to rescue its soldiers. Hizbollah have cocked up big time by spreading the conflict since they are supported from within Syria and Iran as well as in Lebanon. This is not what the world needs now.

The Gaza situation is different since, although the Israelis have 'withdrawn', under international law, until there is a final agreed solution to the Palestinian question, the citizens of Gaza are still the responsibility of Israel which took control from Egypt in 1967. The PA is not a recognised state, but Israel has no right to settle the land under the Fourth Protocol to the Geneva Convention. If the PA were a recognised sovereign state then the world would be obliged to protect it in the same way that they came to Kuwait's aid (hence no hurry towards a 2 state solution).

The important thing, in the forthcoming mess, is to separate out the different elements, interlinked though they might be. Hizbollah had no right to seize the Israeli troops and should return them forthwith.

Oddly, it is arguable that had the attackers been Palestinian refugees trying to regain their native land then that would have been different. Lebanese Shi'ites have no right to Israel; Palestinians have a right to return guaranteed under UN resolutions going back to 1948.

ReLB71 · 13-07-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The important thing, in the forthcoming mess, is to separate out the different elements, interlinked though they might be

This is ‘important’ & on that point alone I would agree with you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Israel has the same right to defend her sovereign territory as all other states. Although I doubt that the Hizbollah attack had the support of the majority of the Lebanese Government, Israel does have the duty to protect its citizens within its own borders and to rescue its soldiers. Hizbollah have cocked up big time by spreading the conflict since they are supported from within Syria and Iran as well as in Lebanon. This is not what the world needs now.

Concurred as Israel has de jure, a fact which is often forgotten, & by application any nation state faced with such armed provocation & direct attack would counter same, force should met with force-less they appear weak & unable or unwilling to defend themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Hizbollah had no right to seize the Israeli troops and should return them forthwith.

Concurred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The Gaza situation is different since, although the Israelis have 'withdrawn', under international law, until there is a final agreed solution to the Palestinian question... the citizens of Gaza are still the responsibility of Israel which took control from Egypt in 1967

The point that international law is used against Israel is irrelevant to this set of circumstances as Israel as we have established does have the right to defend herself & by extension her people including the military

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The PA is not a recognised state, but Israel has no right to settle the land under the Fourth Protocol to the Geneva Convention If the PA were a recognised sovereign state then the world would be obliged to protect it in the same way that they came to Kuwait's aid (hence no hurry towards a 2 state solution).

Again irrelevant to the questions set & within this set of circumstances, Israel has de jure & as acknowledged by yourself has a right to defend herself.

To me your last two points are not invalid per se as they do provide an important recognition- that of context, & indeed would (imo) lead to some potential reasons to underline causes & rationales for the attacks in general. However with regard to the questions set those points are peripheral within this set of circumstances, as what is obvious for any & all to see is that Israel is under attack. These questions are at the core of this current set of circumstances due to the very nature of the attacks in question & thus should be seen in this light.

Thankyou

Michael Hillier · 29-07-2006, 01:34 AM

Slightly off topic:

Hezbollah killed 8 Israeli Soldiers and kidnapped 2 soldiers. This was done without any provocation by Israel of any kind.

Some countries and people say that the Israli responce is excessive and should be haulted. Remember this was started by Hesbollah in Lebanon and they declared war on Israel.

Israel has asked for the return of its 2 kidnapped soldiers.

The Israeli response should be to ask for the return in 48 hours of the two kidnapped soldiers alive and in good health. If not Israel should tell Hezbollah that they will put a small nucelar bomb in the centre of Beirut.
If Hezbollah does not return the 2 Israeli soldiers alive and in good condition they will see what will happen to their country and this should deter any other nations in attacking Israel.

Israel has the right to defend itself and if any country declares war they should know what the concequences will be.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

12-07-2006, 11:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,730	As Mike notes, I am indeed British (TVM Mike, I'll buy you a beer). I only moved information from one part of the Internet to another. www.whois.co.uk is a public access source of ownership of web sites. If you own a website then your presence on the web is public. I don't say that everything that is published on this website is wrong, but there is potential for bias (to use a legal term) when the author discusses the Palestinian question. One of the earlier suicide bombs took place in the suburb of Kfar Saba and many residents are understandably anti-Palestinian. The point I made was that the quoted source is not without bias.

13-07-2006, 06:41 AM	#25 (permalink)
Mikeuk Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fareham Posts: 5,658 Party: Conservatives	That was a real thread-pooper :evil:

13-07-2006, 11:40 AM	#27 (permalink)
ReLB71 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Does Israel have the right to defend her sovereign territory from an armed aggressor (terrorist or other wise)? Does Israel have the right to retaliate against armed agressors (terrorist or other wise) who have openly attacked & made armed incursions in to Israeli sovereign territory? Does Israel have the right to defend & protect her citizens (this to include members of the military) in face of these armed attacks by an enemy intent upon provoking an armed conflict?

13-07-2006, 12:08 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,730	Israel has the same right to defend her sovereign territory as all other states. Although I doubt that the Hizbollah attack had the support of the majority of the Lebanese Government, Israel does have the duty to protect its citizens within its own borders and to rescue its soldiers. Hizbollah have cocked up big time by spreading the conflict since they are supported from within Syria and Iran as well as in Lebanon. This is not what the world needs now. The Gaza situation is different since, although the Israelis have 'withdrawn', under international law, until there is a final agreed solution to the Palestinian question, the citizens of Gaza are still the responsibility of Israel which took control from Egypt in 1967. The PA is not a recognised state, but Israel has no right to settle the land under the Fourth Protocol to the Geneva Convention. If the PA were a recognised sovereign state then the world would be obliged to protect it in the same way that they came to Kuwait's aid (hence no hurry towards a 2 state solution). The important thing, in the forthcoming mess, is to separate out the different elements, interlinked though they might be. Hizbollah had no right to seize the Israeli troops and should return them forthwith. Oddly, it is arguable that had the attackers been Palestinian refugees trying to regain their native land then that would have been different. Lebanese Shi'ites have no right to Israel; Palestinians have a right to return guaranteed under UN resolutions going back to 1948.

29-07-2006, 01:34 AM	#30 (permalink)
Michael Hillier Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bournemouth, Dorset Posts: 363	Slightly off topic: Hezbollah killed 8 Israeli Soldiers and kidnapped 2 soldiers. This was done without any provocation by Israel of any kind. Some countries and people say that the Israli responce is excessive and should be haulted. Remember this was started by Hesbollah in Lebanon and they declared war on Israel. Israel has asked for the return of its 2 kidnapped soldiers. The Israeli response should be to ask for the return in 48 hours of the two kidnapped soldiers alive and in good health. If not Israel should tell Hezbollah that they will put a small nucelar bomb in the centre of Beirut. If Hezbollah does not return the 2 Israeli soldiers alive and in good condition they will see what will happen to their country and this should deter any other nations in attacking Israel. Israel has the right to defend itself and if any country declares war they should know what the concequences will be.