Israel refuses to negotiate over captured soldier

blondy · 11-07-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeuk

The Jewish National Home in Palestine got off to a very bad start in that territories formerly administered by the Sublime Porte, and containing Muslims, Jews and Christians were arbitrarily turned over to become what became a settler state largely for the benefit of Europeans and Americans of the Jewish religion.

This was an arbitrary, imperialistic, act, for which the British Government of the time bears full responsibility. The residents were never consulted on the move; nor were the Arab leaders who have helped Britain and her allies defeat their overlords.

Given such circumstances is it surprising that many have taken the view that the State of Israel lacks a certain legitimacy?

The answer of course is that Israel is a fait accompli and common humanity demands that Israeli citizens who had no part in the shady wheeling and dealings of the early-mid 20th century must be protected against terrorism and wanton murder.

But as well as humanity, humility is called for. We must try to find a way forward that will satisfy all reasonable international opinion, and that will involve clipping Israel's wings while affording her all due protection.

If Israel and America continue to alienate world opinion there will be no end to the present conflict, and little sympathy when it escalates.

If the residents had been consulted on the move and if the Arab leaders were in agreement with the decision, would that change your opinion on Israel's right to exist?

Mikeuk · 11-07-2006, 10:39 PM

Actually no, because I do believe that Israel does have a right to exist; simply because it does exist.

I also believe that North Korea, Iran and Zimbabwe have the right to exist, but I don't spend my time prancing around saying how fantastic they are.

If America and Americans gain a reputation for enthusiastically supporting the Israelis instead of being even-handed, how can you ever hope to gain the trust of the Arabs?

Aardvark · 11-07-2006, 11:50 PM

The Palestinians have no international locus standi so cannot sign the Geneva Conventions; only sovereign states can do so.

Churchill had not conquered the English counties referred to, they were part of englandfor over 1000 years and part of teh UK for the best part of 250. They were not occupied by native Germans or French, but wer part of England. The West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Arabs and have been for centuries- indeed the majority of the Arabs are descended from the Jews and Christians who converted to Islam as the Middle East became part of the Islamic/Ottoman Empires. Israel is being asked to return land conquered at gun point in 1967. No comparison really.

Hamas' constitution is robust and hawkish. The probability is that the people who voted for Hamas had not read the document in the same way that people who voted for Blair at the GE had never read the Labour Party manifesto. There is room for moderate men to get together and keep the extremists on both sides at bay.

Arafat was not offered 98% of the West Bank unconditionally. The Jordan valley was to be leased back to Israel for 100 years. This made the Palestinian State unviable.

'Israelis' may well have bought land before 1948, but this doesn't entitle them to sovereignty. Jews own land in England, it doesn't make it part of the Jewish state. The UN had no right to create a state on land where sovereignty had not been ceded by the original owners.

Gaza alone cannot become a self-governing state when the Palestinians have no control over the border crossings - every car, every lorry, every pedestrian who enters Gaza does so with the express permission of Israel. The Palestinians don't even control the crossing into Egypt. The Israelis don't allow shipping they disapprove of to enter waters off Gaza. The Israelis collect taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority and have withheld them from the day Hamas became the elected government; how can a governmenmtwith no money clamp down on terrorist organisations? The Palestinian police haven't been paid for months, why would they risk their lives to protect the Israelis who have stolen their pay from them?

Olmert and many Israeli leaders don't want a lasting peace because then they would not need the 6 billion dollars of US aid that they receive every year, excluding the military aid they receive. The extremists on both sides feed off each other. Sharon actually deliberately provoked tension and started the Intifada by taking a walk, with hundreds of police, around the Temple Mount. A quiet and discreet word with the Imams would probably have led to him having an escorted talk with Muslim guides. Sharon didn't want a peaceful settlement.

I'd love to be the ruler of Palestine, but that ain't going to happen. First things first, I would try to create a ceasefire that would last so that negotiations would take place. Nobody else seems interested in that.

blondy · 12-07-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeuk

Actually no, because I do believe that Israel does have a right to exist; simply because it does exist.

I also believe that North Korea, Iran and Zimbabwe have the right to exist, but I don't spend my time prancing around saying how fantastic they are.

If America and Americans gain a reputation for enthusiastically supporting the Israelis instead of being even-handed, how can you ever hope to gain the trust of the Arabs?

:shock:

How can you be any more even-handed to a nation which is committed to kill your ally and who refuses to compromise and negotiate than to provide it millions and millions of dollars of foreign aid and advise your ally not to act too rashly to their continued attacks?

If a psychopathic killer, someone who won't stop trying to kill and can't be reasoned with, is locked up in an asylum or imprisoned, what is the reasonable way of dealing with a people who will not recognize Israel's right to exist?

The majority of the people voted Hamas into power because they were able to better provide for the people's needs, but the similarity between Hamas and the Arafat government was that they were both committed to death to Israel.

To be more even-handed would be to do what, exactly?

blondy · 12-07-2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

The Palestinians have no international locus standi so cannot sign the Geneva Conventions; only sovereign states can do so.

Churchill had not conquered the English counties referred to, they were part of englandfor over 1000 years and part of teh UK for the best part of 250. They were not occupied by native Germans or French, but wer part of England. The West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Arabs and have been for centuries- indeed the majority of the Arabs are descended from the Jews and Christians who converted to Islam as the Middle East became part of the Islamic/Ottoman Empires. Israel is being asked to return land conquered at gun point in 1967. No comparison really.

Hamas' constitution is robust and hawkish. The probability is that the people who voted for Hamas had not read the document in the same way that people who voted for Blair at the GE had never read the Labour Party manifesto. There is room for moderate men to get together and keep the extremists on both sides at bay.

Arafat was not offered 98% of the West Bank unconditionally. The Jordan valley was to be leased back to Israel for 100 years. This made the Palestinian State unviable.

'Israelis' may well have bought land before 1948, but this doesn't entitle them to sovereignty. Jews own land in England, it doesn't make it part of the Jewish state. The UN had no right to create a state on land where sovereignty had not been ceded by the original owners.

Gaza alone cannot become a self-governing state when the Palestinians have no control over the border crossings - every car, every lorry, every pedestrian who enters Gaza does so with the express permission of Israel. The Palestinians don't even control the crossing into Egypt. The Israelis don't allow shipping they disapprove of to enter waters off Gaza. The Israelis collect taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority and have withheld them from the day Hamas became the elected government; how can a governmenmtwith no money clamp down on terrorist organisations? The Palestinian police haven't been paid for months, why would they risk their lives to protect the Israelis who have stolen their pay from them?

Olmert and many Israeli leaders don't want a lasting peace because then they would not need the 6 billion dollars of US aid that they receive every year, excluding the military aid they receive. The extremists on both sides feed off each other. Sharon actually deliberately provoked tension and started the Intifada by taking a walk, with hundreds of police, around the Temple Mount. A quiet and discreet word with the Imams would probably have led to him having an escorted talk with Muslim guides. Sharon didn't want a peaceful settlement.

I'd love to be the ruler of Palestine, but that ain't going to happen. First things first, I would try to create a ceasefire that would last so that negotiations would take place. Nobody else seems interested in that.

There have been many cease fires. And the Palestinians have always used cease-fires as periods when they are able to lick their wounds, re-arm and prepare for the next round of attacks on Israel when they are ready.

This is proscribed in the Koran.

Land conquered in war have routinely been claimed by the conquerer. The fact that the wars against Israel were started by as many as 5 of their neighbors all at once ganging up on them to wipe them off the map should grant israel even more right to this captured territory.

Frankly, after reading your post a second and a third time I realize that you continue drawing my attention away from the most important factor.

Hamas and the Palestinian people have yet to express a willingness to live side-by-side with Israel in peace.

Any discussions of the details of history are best reserved for after we have an agreement that promises Israel will no longer have to use such 'terrible' measures to prevent the Palestinians from wiping them off the map.

After that is achieved the living conditions of the Palestinians will improve almost immediately and like magic.

EDIT: I just happened to run across this and thought you'd appreciate it.

Quote:

Israel's self-destruction

By Louis Rene Beres
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published June 22, 2006

"All people, Jews or gentiles, who dare not defend themselves when they know they are in the right, who submit to punishment not because of what they have done but because of who they are, are already dead by their own decision; and whether or not they survive physically depends on chance. If circumstances are not favorable, they end up in gas chambers."
— Bruno Bettelheim, "Freud's Vienna and Other Essays"

Like the Greek poet Homer, Bruno Bettelheim understands that the force that does not kill can turn human beings into stone — into things — while they are still alive. Merely hanging ominously over the head of the vulnerable creature, it can choose to kill at any moment, poised lasciviously to destroy breath in what it has graciously allowed, if only for a few more moments, to breathe, this force mocks the fragile life it intends to consume. The pitiable human being who stands helplessly before this force has already become a corpse.

Israel, this pitiable human being in macrocosm, is now in a final process of becoming this "thing." Called upon repeatedly by our "civilized" world to negotiate with unrepentant terrorists, every prime minister from Yitzhak Rabin to Ariel Sharon has agreed to assorted policies of national defeat. Current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's idea for Middle East peace is simply more of the same. Fortified by an incontestable history of prime ministerial failure, his ironic plan is to arm Fatah against Hamas and to proceed with a new round of existential territorial concessions. Inevitably, of course, Israel will continue to disappear in shameless increments of auto-desecration now named "realignment."

Years ago, in an initial burst of strategic ingenuity, Israel decided to arm Hamas and its various Islamist fundamentalist antecedents against Fatah. Now, the leadership in Jerusalem calculates that an adversarial reversal is in order. In both cases, this leadership has missed the essential and rather obvious point: Both Hamas and Fatah are equally and fully committed to Israel's complete annihilation. Neither can ever serve Israel's security interests.

It might seem, however, that the Arab world would at least be grateful to Mr. Olmert for being complicit in Israel's eradication. Surely, the Arab world must be immensely pleased that no words from the current prime minister now curse Fatah's unceasing support of genocide against Jewish Israel. Surely, in appreciation, they must be prepared to offer some significant quid pro quo.

But the Arab world does not willingly play the gentleman. It is, in this respect, a markedly honest world. Even today, even while Mr. Olmert slavishly follows the "roadmap" peace plan, the official Palestinian Authority map of "Palestine" remains undisguised. On this revealing piece of genocidal cartography, Palestine includes all of Israel. There aren't two states on Palestinian Mahmoud Abbas' maps — only one.

One might expect that Israel, after all the horror it has suffered at the hands of Arab terrorists, would betray itself no longer. When Priam enters the tent of Achilles, stops, clasps Achilles' knees and kisses his hands, he has already reduced himself to a hapless and unworthy victim — one to be disposed of without ceremony and in very short order. Realizing this, a gracious Achilles takes the old man's arm, pushing him away. As long as he is clasping Achilles' knees, Priam is an inert object. Only by lifting him up off his knees can Achilles restore him to a position of self-respect and to a living manhood.

Here Israel and Priam part company. Israel's frenzied foes, twisted by jihad, will never act in the manner of Achilles. Their aim is not the high-minded revitalization of a respected enemy, but rather the literal liquidation of an inert object.

Israel has come to accept a deformed image of itself that was spawned not in Jerusalem or Hebron, but in Cairo, London, Damascus, Paris, Baghdad, Washington, Tehran, Hamburg, Jericho and Gaza. Degraded and debased, this is the view not of a strong and righteous people determined to remain alive in their own land but of a conspicuous corpse-in-waiting. Large majorities of courageous Israelis have certainly fought bitterly against such an intolerable view — against the hapless visions of disengagements and realignments — but this defiling image is still in force.

The moral confusion of many Jewish "intellectuals" fuels Israel's open enemies. Writing several years ago about Israel's Oslo agreements, precursor of the road map, Israeli novelist Aharon Megged observed, "We have witnessed a phenomenon which probably has no parallel in history; an emotional and moral identification by the majority of Israel's intelligentsia with people openly committed to our annihilation."

This unique identification has taken poisonous root in a ceaseless succession of inept Israeli governments. Unless it is finally ended with Ehud Olmert, this prime minister will bring a final end to Israel.

Louis Rene Beres is professor of political science and international law at Purdue University and the author of many books on Israeli security issues.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060...5648-9557r.htm

Mikeuk · 12-07-2006, 06:55 AM

Pretentious tripe from The Washington Times, founded in 1982 by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church ('The Moonies')

Israel is not 'a person' and neither (as you suggest) can the Palestinian people be condemned as if they were one individual with one opinion.

I thought Republicans were opposed to collectivism and in favour of individualism?

No doubt they are, when it suits them.

blondy · 12-07-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeuk

Pretentious tripe from The Washington Times, founded in 1982 by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church ('The Moonies')

Israel is not 'a person' and neither (as you suggest) can the Palestinian people be condemned as if they were one individual with one opinion.

I thought Republicans were opposed to collectivism and in favour of individualism?

No doubt they are, when it suits them.

Let's not stray too far from the topic, hmm?

These are a real treat. It presents the history of Israel and the conflict there in a nutshell from the relatively recent past and then from the distant past.

These presentations are colorful, interactive, short and to the point, fact filled and flash animated. I know you will love them!

Anyone wanting to be able to speak intelligently about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will not find a quicker, more easily understood tutorial.

You'll want to share these with your friends and family.

History in a Nutshell too
http://www.conceptwizard.com/nutoo/nutshell3.html

History in a Nutshell
http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html

Aardvark · 12-07-2006, 09:59 AM

A typically unbiased link!!!! :roll:

According to whois.co.uk this is the information on conceptwizard.com

Domain Name.......... conceptwizard.com
Creation Date........ 2000-07-13
Registration Date.... 2000-07-13
Expiry Date.......... 2006-07-13
Organisation Name.... Udi Ohana
Organisation Address. 51B Tel-Hai
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. Kfar -Saba
Organisation Address. 44229
Organisation Address. NA
Organisation Address. ISRAEL

Admin Name........... Udi Ohana
Admin Address........ 51B Tel-Hai
Admin Address........
Admin Address........ Kfar -Saba
Admin Address........ 44229
Admin Address........ NA
Admin Address........ ISRAEL
Admin Email.......... udiohana@inter.net.il
Admin Phone.......... 097651529
Admin Fax............

Tech Name............ Verio Hostmaster
Tech Address......... 5050 Blue Lake Dr.
Tech Address.........
Tech Address......... Boca Raton
Tech Address......... 33431
Tech Address......... FL
Tech Address......... UNITED STATES
Tech Email........... hostmaster@VERIO-HOSTING.COM
Tech Phone........... 888-663-6648
Tech Fax.............
Name Server.......... ns11a.verio-web.com
Name Server.......... ns11b.verio-web.com

Please, please, please stop using Udi Ohana as a source. He really doesn't like Arabs and chooses to live in a municipality that is 99.9% Jewish.

Note: Operation Medina, that took place before the declaration of Israeli independence saw the seizure of the Arab villages around Kfar Saba with the expulsion of their inhabitants. Ethnic cleansing appears to be okay when carried out by Israelis.

blondy · 12-07-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

A typically unbiased link!!!! :roll:

According to whois.co.uk this is the information on conceptwizard.com
Please, please, please stop using Udi Ohana as a source. He really doesn't like Arabs and chooses to live in a municipality that is 99.9% Jewish.

Note: Operation Medina, that took place before the declaration of Israeli independence saw the seizure of the Arab villages around Kfar Saba with the expulsion of their inhabitants. Ethnic cleansing appears to be okay when carried out by Israelis.

I think you are quite desperate and underhanded by posting their information online. Do you ALSO have pics of their house that you'd care to post? :evil:

It is very un-fair and very Un-American to disregard or diminish someone's information or try to discredit that person as a reliable source on the basis of where they were born or where they live.

That would be like everyone discrediting EVERYTHING you might say simply because you are let's say, an Arab or a Muslim and live in a Muslim neighborhood.

This is not acceptable and you have discredited yourself and shown your cause to be without merit by resorting to such tactics when it is obvious that the information presented in the www.conceptwizard.com presentations is the truth and that it cuts through your smoke and mirrors and disinformation and obfuscation to tell the truth of the history of Israel and Palestine.

Bottom line...

The truth hurts.

Mikeuk · 12-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blondy

These are a real treat. It presents the history of Israel and the conflict there in a nutshell from the relatively recent past and then from the distant past.

These presentations are colorful, interactive, short and to the point, fact filled and flash animated. I know you will love them!

Anyone wanting to be able to speak intelligently about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict will not find a quicker, more easily understood tutorial.

You'll want to share these with your friends and family.

I probably won't have any friends left if I inflict this tedious low-tech presentation on them, and what's with 'BCE/CE'? BC and AD if you don't mind. :twisted:

The facts that are presented are skewed, and many of the most important facts left out.

Of course there have always been some Jews in Palestine. That did not give vast numbers of Americans and Europeans of a particular religion the moral right to 'kick Palestinian ass' as one of your supporters advocates.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-07-2006, 10:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mikeuk Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fareham Posts: 5,658 Party: Conservatives	Actually no, because I do believe that Israel does have a right to exist; simply because it does exist. I also believe that North Korea, Iran and Zimbabwe have the right to exist, but I don't spend my time prancing around saying how fantastic they are. If America and Americans gain a reputation for enthusiastically supporting the Israelis instead of being even-handed, how can you ever hope to gain the trust of the Arabs?

11-07-2006, 11:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,735	The Palestinians have no international locus standi so cannot sign the Geneva Conventions; only sovereign states can do so. Churchill had not conquered the English counties referred to, they were part of englandfor over 1000 years and part of teh UK for the best part of 250. They were not occupied by native Germans or French, but wer part of England. The West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Arabs and have been for centuries- indeed the majority of the Arabs are descended from the Jews and Christians who converted to Islam as the Middle East became part of the Islamic/Ottoman Empires. Israel is being asked to return land conquered at gun point in 1967. No comparison really. Hamas' constitution is robust and hawkish. The probability is that the people who voted for Hamas had not read the document in the same way that people who voted for Blair at the GE had never read the Labour Party manifesto. There is room for moderate men to get together and keep the extremists on both sides at bay. Arafat was not offered 98% of the West Bank unconditionally. The Jordan valley was to be leased back to Israel for 100 years. This made the Palestinian State unviable. 'Israelis' may well have bought land before 1948, but this doesn't entitle them to sovereignty. Jews own land in England, it doesn't make it part of the Jewish state. The UN had no right to create a state on land where sovereignty had not been ceded by the original owners. Gaza alone cannot become a self-governing state when the Palestinians have no control over the border crossings - every car, every lorry, every pedestrian who enters Gaza does so with the express permission of Israel. The Palestinians don't even control the crossing into Egypt. The Israelis don't allow shipping they disapprove of to enter waters off Gaza. The Israelis collect taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority and have withheld them from the day Hamas became the elected government; how can a governmenmtwith no money clamp down on terrorist organisations? The Palestinian police haven't been paid for months, why would they risk their lives to protect the Israelis who have stolen their pay from them? Olmert and many Israeli leaders don't want a lasting peace because then they would not need the 6 billion dollars of US aid that they receive every year, excluding the military aid they receive. The extremists on both sides feed off each other. Sharon actually deliberately provoked tension and started the Intifada by taking a walk, with hundreds of police, around the Temple Mount. A quiet and discreet word with the Imams would probably have led to him having an escorted talk with Muslim guides. Sharon didn't want a peaceful settlement. I'd love to be the ruler of Palestine, but that ain't going to happen. First things first, I would try to create a ceasefire that would last so that negotiations would take place. Nobody else seems interested in that.

12-07-2006, 06:55 AM	#16 (permalink)
Mikeuk Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fareham Posts: 5,658 Party: Conservatives	Pretentious tripe from The Washington Times, founded in 1982 by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church ('The Moonies') Israel is not 'a person' and neither (as you suggest) can the Palestinian people be condemned as if they were one individual with one opinion. I thought Republicans were opposed to collectivism and in favour of individualism? No doubt they are, when it suits them.

12-07-2006, 09:59 AM	#18 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,735	A typically unbiased link!!!! :roll: According to whois.co.uk this is the information on conceptwizard.com Domain Name.......... conceptwizard.com Creation Date........ 2000-07-13 Registration Date.... 2000-07-13 Expiry Date.......... 2006-07-13 Organisation Name.... Udi Ohana Organisation Address. 51B Tel-Hai Organisation Address. Organisation Address. Kfar -Saba Organisation Address. 44229 Organisation Address. NA Organisation Address. ISRAEL Admin Name........... Udi Ohana Admin Address........ 51B Tel-Hai Admin Address........ Admin Address........ Kfar -Saba Admin Address........ 44229 Admin Address........ NA Admin Address........ ISRAEL Admin Email.......... udiohana@inter.net.il Admin Phone.......... 097651529 Admin Fax............ Tech Name............ Verio Hostmaster Tech Address......... 5050 Blue Lake Dr. Tech Address......... Tech Address......... Boca Raton Tech Address......... 33431 Tech Address......... FL Tech Address......... UNITED STATES Tech Email........... hostmaster@VERIO-HOSTING.COM Tech Phone........... 888-663-6648 Tech Fax............. Name Server.......... ns11a.verio-web.com Name Server.......... ns11b.verio-web.com Please, please, please stop using Udi Ohana as a source. He really doesn't like Arabs and chooses to live in a municipality that is 99.9% Jewish. Note: Operation Medina, that took place before the declaration of Israeli independence saw the seizure of the Arab villages around Kfar Saba with the expulsion of their inhabitants. Ethnic cleansing appears to be okay when carried out by Israelis.