The Da Vinci code has nothing on this!

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 02:28 PM

Well at least some of our German friends would agree with you!

Aardvark wrote

Quote:

Incidentally the terrorist groups of the Stern Gang, Haganah and Irgun were all absorbed into the IDF on its creation and people wanted by the British Mandate authorities for murder subsequently went into the Israeli government.

You might consider the Stern Group, Irgun and Haganah terrorists and I am sure there are plenty of people who would agree with you, e.g. admirers of the Waffen SS who murdered British prisoners of War after their capture in 1940 in France by the advanceing Germans.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
„Ik val aan, volg mij!”
Rear Admiral Karel Doorman Royal Netherlands Navy
Battle of the Java Sea 1942

Aardvark · 14-06-2006, 02:37 PM

I was speculating on different scenarios. Suggesting someone might be a Mossad member is an extreme example. You are right, being secret requires secrecy as to your intentions. That doesn't mean that a secret agent cannot be a public figure and cannot use disinformation as a tool.

Trolls come and go on this website. Some are very clever no doubt and give a few nuggets of disinformation and disappear, others are overt about their intentions to damage the eurosceptic position.

With the end of the Cold War and the breakdown of many barriers across the world, there are few festering sores. The middle east issue is the biggest and most explosive one. During the Cold war the US gave unqualified support to Israel in order to counter Soviet influence in Syria and Egypt amongst others. The wealth and strength of a number of non oil-based Arab states has been based on the geopolitical requirements of the Cold War. My friend's enemy is my enemy appears to have been the guiding rule and it has allowed a situation to develop that has the world stuck in a political impasse. The realignment that will take place in the next few years as the old dictators disappear could leave Israel's importance considerably reduced. Israel has therefore to define its boundaries very quickly since it will no longer be an important player.

I am not cherry picking to make my point, but just pointing out that there are extremists on all sides. I don't expect the Israeli secular state to disappear overnight, although the ultra-Orthodox are currently gaining more converts and breeding considerably faster than even the poorest Muslims. The secular Israelis are actually concerned that they might be squeezed by the drift towards extremism amongst both Jews and Muslims which will leave Christian Arabs, secular and moderate Arabs of Muslim origin and secular Jews stuck in the middle of a lunatic end game where the nutters of the Jewish side try to demolish Islam's third most holy site in order to rebuild the temple (this is planned and over 40,000 extreme Jews gathered in Jerusalem when I was there and proclaimed that they would rebuild the temple in our time). I've actually read Jewish items on this subject. In the fall out, all of the world's lunatic Muslims will randomly attack Jewish targets worldwide forcing the end of the diaspora, a return to Israel of all surviving Jews and the coming of Armageddon (there's a website out there suggesting that). It's not just the nutty Muslims that we have to worry about.

Adrian, If I did have a greater understanding of covert and clandestine tradecraft I would not tell you on this forum would I?

Aardvark · 14-06-2006, 02:48 PM

The men murdered by the SS were members of the Royal Warwickshires, the fore runners of my old TA unit (5RRF). Unlike the civilians blown up by Jewish terrorists in the King David Hotel they were supposed to be subject to the Geneva Convention which makes the atrocity doubly appalling, but sadly it was as nothing to what followed in the east.

That said, the groups I have named were all responsible for the murder of unarmed Arab civilians. There were recorded incidents of ethnic cleansing that led to the large exodus of frightened, unarmed Arabs from Palestine into the refugee camps they and their descendants now occupy. The terrorists responsible for murder not only of Arabs, but British servicemen, were incorporated into the IDF. Menachem Begin, wanted in this country for murder, achieved the highest office in the Israeli Government.

Adrain, Do you think the King David Hotel bombing was an act of terrorism or not? Do you think it was right for the surviving perpetrators of that act of mass murder to be incorporated in the IDF?

You do not have to be an admirer of the SS to think the King David Hotel bombing was an act of terrorism and that the perpetrators should have been punished not feted as heroes!

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 03:01 PM

Aardvark wrote

Quote:

Unlike the civilians blown up by Jewish terrorists in the King David Hotel they were supposed to be subject to the Geneva Convention which makes the atrocity doubly appalling, but sadly it was as nothing to what followed in the east.

I presume then, that when the RAF bombed Berlin that if you happened to be in a Hotel you would have been safe or else are you calling the Officers and Enlisted men and women of RAF Bomber Command, terrorists?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
„Ik val aan, volg mij!”
Rear Admiral Karel Doorman Royal Netherlands Navy
Battle of the Java Sea 1942

Aardvark · 14-06-2006, 03:22 PM

The bombing of German cities is completely different to what took place in Palestine under the Mandate. Germany was at war with the UK and Commonwealth. Germany's army was illegally occupying several countries. They had to be defeated. The alternative to attacking Germany and destroying its industrial capacity was to be subject to German occupation ourselves. If the RAF had not maintained the war on Germany when the rest of Europe had given up there wouldn't be any Jews alive today to have an Israel!!!!

The Mandate was created under the auspices of the League of Nations after WWI. Palestine had been part of Ottoman Turkey and was ceded by the Turkish Government. The British Mandate had international agreement. The Jewish terrorists were not soldiers, they were not part of any national army. There was no Jewish state; they were subject to British rule under international agreement. The attack was purely intended to destabilise the British presence and to weaken the resolve of the UK to continue with the Mandate. It had no legitimacy since the British Mandate was being wound up in any event and the Jews were not being oppressed by a power that occupied their land (read the sodding Balfour Declaration!)

BTW I don't accept that the Jews alive today are pure bred descendants of the wandering tribe that was allegedly given the holy land by a god who may or may not even exist - it's quite possible that the Books of Moses are a complete work of fiction and they certainly aren't the basis for drawing borders to be occupied by Poles, Russians and Belarussians 3000 years later.

I get the impression, Adrian, that you are seeking to justify wholesale murder by Jewish terrorists because it doesn't fit with your world view.

The Royal Air Force aircrew could never be considered terrorists. Unlike the terrorists that blew up the King David Hotel the RAF aircrew wore uniform, obeyed a set of rules and regulations laid down by a democratically elected government and fought a war in a style that the enemy had invented and presumably accepted (Guernica).

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 03:33 PM

Aardvark wrote

Quote:

The alternative to attacking Germany and destroying its industrial capacity

The RAF spent a lot of time area bombing German citys rather than specific industrial targets and as it so happened German industrial capacity actually rose whilst the Reich was being bombed by the RAF.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 03:38 PM

Aardvark I would be very interested to know what was the King David Hotel's use, like if nothing more was going on there than the odd fancy dress party and ball room dancing competition, well then one might think that blowing the place up would be somewhat OTT!

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 03:54 PM

Aadvark wrote

Quote:

BTW I don't accept that the Jews alive today are pure bred descendants of the wandering tribe that was allegedly given the holy land by a god who may or may not even exist - it's quite possible that the Books of Moses are a complete work of fiction and they certainly aren't the basis for drawing borders to be occupied by Poles, Russians and Belarussians 3000 years later.

Well His Britannic Majesty's Government might well have been [ and perhaps still is? ] in agreement with you Aadvark on the utter irrelevance of the bible, in how it returned the Cossack troops [ including women and children non-combatant camp followers ] who had fought for the Third Reich, to the Soviet Union to be murdered, which seems a most un-Christian thing to do.

And then there is the issue of the treatment of Poland in the immediate aftermath of World War 2 when this country was occupied by the USSR a once loyal ally of the Third Reich, whatever you might think of the Holy Bible Aardvark, I am sure the Polish people prefer the Bible to the Communist Manifesto

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

„Ik val aan, volg mij!”
Rear Admiral Karel Doorman Royal Netherlands Navy
Battle of the Java Sea 1942

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 04:09 PM

"I look to the world with an open heart full of pure feelings and friendship".

Kemal Attaturk 1933

Aardvark wrote

Quote:

The Mandate was created under the auspices of the League of Nations after WWI. Palestine had been part of Ottoman Turkey and was ceded by the Turkish Government. The British Mandate had international agreement.

Exactly and the Jewish people was recognized by the Sultan as one of the constituent people's of the Ottoman Empire. As a result of the break-up of the Ottoman Empire, the Jews had a right to their own national state i.e. Israel, this issue is implicitly recognized in the modern Israeli State by the incorporation of Ottoman Turkish law in to the present day Israeli law and the extensive and deep relationship between today's secularist Turkish Republic founded by Kemal Ataturk and the State of Israel.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

adrianwainer · 14-06-2006, 04:20 PM

Aardvark wrote

Quote:

The Mandate was created under the auspices of the League of Nations after WWI. Palestine had been part of Ottoman Turkey and was ceded by the Turkish Government. The British Mandate had international agreement.

Lets get this right, so when Neville Chamberlain was handing over the Sudetenland to the Third Reich, that was nothing to do with the British responsabilities as a member of the League of nations but when it comes to seeking to bullying the wretched survivors of the Nazi concentration camps in British mandated Palestine and Europe in order to ingraciate His Majesty's government with the various Arab tribesmen, His majesty Government invokes the regal splendour of the League of Nations and all its works and its duty to this organization. :shock:

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

14-06-2006, 03:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
adrianwainer Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 823	Come dancing! Aardvark I would be very interested to know what was the King David Hotel's use, like if nothing more was going on there than the odd fancy dress party and ball room dancing competition, well then one might think that blowing the place up would be somewhat OTT! Best and Warm Regards Adrian Wainer

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14-06-2006, 02:37 PM	#22 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,928	I was speculating on different scenarios. Suggesting someone might be a Mossad member is an extreme example. You are right, being secret requires secrecy as to your intentions. That doesn't mean that a secret agent cannot be a public figure and cannot use disinformation as a tool. Trolls come and go on this website. Some are very clever no doubt and give a few nuggets of disinformation and disappear, others are overt about their intentions to damage the eurosceptic position. With the end of the Cold War and the breakdown of many barriers across the world, there are few festering sores. The middle east issue is the biggest and most explosive one. During the Cold war the US gave unqualified support to Israel in order to counter Soviet influence in Syria and Egypt amongst others. The wealth and strength of a number of non oil-based Arab states has been based on the geopolitical requirements of the Cold War. My friend's enemy is my enemy appears to have been the guiding rule and it has allowed a situation to develop that has the world stuck in a political impasse. The realignment that will take place in the next few years as the old dictators disappear could leave Israel's importance considerably reduced. Israel has therefore to define its boundaries very quickly since it will no longer be an important player. I am not cherry picking to make my point, but just pointing out that there are extremists on all sides. I don't expect the Israeli secular state to disappear overnight, although the ultra-Orthodox are currently gaining more converts and breeding considerably faster than even the poorest Muslims. The secular Israelis are actually concerned that they might be squeezed by the drift towards extremism amongst both Jews and Muslims which will leave Christian Arabs, secular and moderate Arabs of Muslim origin and secular Jews stuck in the middle of a lunatic end game where the nutters of the Jewish side try to demolish Islam's third most holy site in order to rebuild the temple (this is planned and over 40,000 extreme Jews gathered in Jerusalem when I was there and proclaimed that they would rebuild the temple in our time). I've actually read Jewish items on this subject. In the fall out, all of the world's lunatic Muslims will randomly attack Jewish targets worldwide forcing the end of the diaspora, a return to Israel of all surviving Jews and the coming of Armageddon (there's a website out there suggesting that). It's not just the nutty Muslims that we have to worry about. Adrian, If I did have a greater understanding of covert and clandestine tradecraft I would not tell you on this forum would I?

14-06-2006, 02:48 PM	#23 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,928	The men murdered by the SS were members of the Royal Warwickshires, the fore runners of my old TA unit (5RRF). Unlike the civilians blown up by Jewish terrorists in the King David Hotel they were supposed to be subject to the Geneva Convention which makes the atrocity doubly appalling, but sadly it was as nothing to what followed in the east. That said, the groups I have named were all responsible for the murder of unarmed Arab civilians. There were recorded incidents of ethnic cleansing that led to the large exodus of frightened, unarmed Arabs from Palestine into the refugee camps they and their descendants now occupy. The terrorists responsible for murder not only of Arabs, but British servicemen, were incorporated into the IDF. Menachem Begin, wanted in this country for murder, achieved the highest office in the Israeli Government. Adrain, Do you think the King David Hotel bombing was an act of terrorism or not? Do you think it was right for the surviving perpetrators of that act of mass murder to be incorporated in the IDF? You do not have to be an admirer of the SS to think the King David Hotel bombing was an act of terrorism and that the perpetrators should have been punished not feted as heroes!

14-06-2006, 03:22 PM	#25 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,928	The bombing of German cities is completely different to what took place in Palestine under the Mandate. Germany was at war with the UK and Commonwealth. Germany's army was illegally occupying several countries. They had to be defeated. The alternative to attacking Germany and destroying its industrial capacity was to be subject to German occupation ourselves. If the RAF had not maintained the war on Germany when the rest of Europe had given up there wouldn't be any Jews alive today to have an Israel!!!! The Mandate was created under the auspices of the League of Nations after WWI. Palestine had been part of Ottoman Turkey and was ceded by the Turkish Government. The British Mandate had international agreement. The Jewish terrorists were not soldiers, they were not part of any national army. There was no Jewish state; they were subject to British rule under international agreement. The attack was purely intended to destabilise the British presence and to weaken the resolve of the UK to continue with the Mandate. It had no legitimacy since the British Mandate was being wound up in any event and the Jews were not being oppressed by a power that occupied their land (read the sodding Balfour Declaration!) BTW I don't accept that the Jews alive today are pure bred descendants of the wandering tribe that was allegedly given the holy land by a god who may or may not even exist - it's quite possible that the Books of Moses are a complete work of fiction and they certainly aren't the basis for drawing borders to be occupied by Poles, Russians and Belarussians 3000 years later. I get the impression, Adrian, that you are seeking to justify wholesale murder by Jewish terrorists because it doesn't fit with your world view. The Royal Air Force aircrew could never be considered terrorists. Unlike the terrorists that blew up the King David Hotel the RAF aircrew wore uniform, obeyed a set of rules and regulations laid down by a democratically elected government and fought a war in a style that the enemy had invented and presumably accepted (Guernica).