Banned in biology class: intelligent design (USA)

mkpdavies · 20-12-2005, 10:22 PM

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1221/p01s01-ussc.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON AND BOSTON – "Intelligent design" is just another name for creationism - and therefore teaching it in public schools violates the constitutional principle of church-state separation.
That is the bottom line from the decision in perhaps the biggest courtroom clash on the theory of evolution since the 1925 Scopes trial. On Tuesday a federal judge ruled that Pennsylvania's Dover Area School District broke the law when it became one of the first school districts in the United States to include intelligent design in its science curriculum.

I'm not religious in the slightest, but I can see no point in this.

We don't really know how were were created and if there are theories that sound good, that suggest we were created by intelligence, then why should they be dismissed over something that says be evolved from sludge? Is this what education is all about, indoctrination, rather than putting all cases for people to consider?

Martin71 · 20-12-2005, 10:52 PM

I am not religous either, I agree there is uncertainty otherwise this would not be such a hotly debated topic; but in saying this it is also fair to ask is creationism a credible scientific theory? Simply does it meet the accepted scientific criterias?

mkpdavies · 20-12-2005, 11:03 PM

The fact a lot of people believe it, mean it should be up for debate in education for me.

Ruling stuff out because it doesn't meet a set of YOUR definitions, doesn't sound like education to me! More like brainwashing.

John Carter · 20-12-2005, 11:20 PM

This is purely a cultural war thing - the forces of conservatism vs the forces of the left.

Creation is a theory. Evolution is also just a theory. Neither can be taught as scientific fact.

mkpdavies · 20-12-2005, 11:58 PM

I think it's more sinister than that.

Not all lefties I know believe in crushing opinion, just as some people on the right do.

This is a form of fascism and it can come from either wing of politics.

Perhaps att the moment the leftish fascists are in the ascendancy, but I don't want people to jump over to the right, only to find a whole bunch of fascists too.

Anyone that seems to impose thir will, demanding no question should be questioned and confronted.

John Carter · 21-12-2005, 12:04 AM

I've been watching the whole caboodle for a while now - the US is very polarised at the moment with almost no middle ground. It's all very bizarre.

More sinister? In what way?

mkpdavies · 21-12-2005, 12:08 AM

I'm not letting you in on my hideous conspiracy theories! You will think I am even more mad than now! 8)

John Carter · 21-12-2005, 12:13 AM

Aww, go on.

Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on. /Mrs. Doyle

Lafayette · 21-12-2005, 05:20 AM

Quote:

the US is very polarised at the moment with almost no middle ground. It's all very bizarre.

No doubt there is polarization, especially on the role of religion in society, but at least on this we can say the judge is a Republican and a Bush appointee.

Really, I agree with the ruling. It is a violation of the establishment clause in the bill of rights. The government is not supposed to show preference to any religion and the Dover school board along with the other proponents of intelligent design have pretty much admitted that the designer they have in mind is the Christian God. So it would be using public money in a public school to in essence promote Christianity. It might seem unfair to religion, but it is meant to protect followers of other religions and non-believers in deities from the intolerance of a religious government. The issue is so much a cause of dispute that some people even mark out the word God from the motto "In God We Trust" on the money.

This will only make me more unpopular, but I agree with Judge Jones' decision. Religion has too much sway as it is. Were gay marriage amendments passed in all those states for reasons other than religion? Was the controversy over the symbols of Christmas anything more than an attempt to pander to the evangelical voting bloc that is vital to continued Republican control of the country? Women might lose the right to get a safe and legal abortion because the Bible says God knew us in the womb. To me, this outcome was a great thing and I feel safer in my own society because of it. I'm not anti-religion and I have no problem with people using their first amendment rights to express their religious views, but I don't think they should be able to violate my first amendment rights in the process. In their church they can teach what they want. In their homes they can teach what they want and in private religious schools. If a public school has a philosophy class that includes a survey of theology, I have no problem with that either. We all fund those schools with our tax dollars and it isn't fair to use my money or a Muslim's or a Hindu's to pay a teacher to turn a science classroom INTO phpbb_a pulpit if only for a minute.

mkpdavies · 21-12-2005, 05:25 AM

In the world of science, nothing should be ruled out, unless there is solid information to prove so, not even religious stuff!

They don't even need to come at it from a religious slant. Who says the inteligence is God? It could be aliens! We don't know!

Keeping Religion out of School, that's fair enough, but closing the minds of young scientists as an excuse to do so, that is wrong in my opinion.

20-12-2005, 11:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	The fact a lot of people believe it, mean it should be up for debate in education for me. Ruling stuff out because it doesn't meet a set of YOUR definitions, doesn't sound like education to me! More like brainwashing. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

20-12-2005, 11:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	I think it's more sinister than that. Not all lefties I know believe in crushing opinion, just as some people on the right do. This is a form of fascism and it can come from either wing of politics. Perhaps att the moment the leftish fascists are in the ascendancy, but I don't want people to jump over to the right, only to find a whole bunch of fascists too. Anyone that seems to impose thir will, demanding no question should be questioned and confronted. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

21-12-2005, 12:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	I'm not letting you in on my hideous conspiracy theories! You will think I am even more mad than now! 8) __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

21-12-2005, 05:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,841 Party: Libertarian Party	In the world of science, nothing should be ruled out, unless there is solid information to prove so, not even religious stuff! They don't even need to come at it from a religious slant. Who says the inteligence is God? It could be aliens! We don't know! Keeping Religion out of School, that's fair enough, but closing the minds of young scientists as an excuse to do so, that is wrong in my opinion. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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20-12-2005, 10:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Martin71 Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 3	I am not religous either, I agree there is uncertainty otherwise this would not be such a hotly debated topic; but in saying this it is also fair to ask is creationism a credible scientific theory? Simply does it meet the accepted scientific criterias?

20-12-2005, 11:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	This is purely a cultural war thing - the forces of conservatism vs the forces of the left. Creation is a theory. Evolution is also just a theory. Neither can be taught as scientific fact.

21-12-2005, 12:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	I've been watching the whole caboodle for a while now - the US is very polarised at the moment with almost no middle ground. It's all very bizarre. More sinister? In what way?

21-12-2005, 12:13 AM	#8 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	Aww, go on. Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on. /Mrs. Doyle