Chirac vows to restore order amid fresh riots

smooveOp · 09-11-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morlock

Please don’t tell me you’re accusing the Front Nationale of being ‘nazis’ – they have Jewish and even Arab members!

Yes - and certain Jews worked for the National Socialists too but what does that prove?

One thing that you can always rely on is that people will never fail to surprise you with the stupid things that they do.

It may suit your purposes to suggest that the FN are 'decent chaps' who represent the 'silent majority' <vomit> and who are fighting to re-establish law and order in France but the facts don't support that view.

With only a small amount of digging anyone can quickly discover criminal records and a whole unsavoury side to the good old FN - very similar to their bothers in arms in the BNP actually.

Tom Collier · 09-11-2005, 01:51 PM

Smoove op, my point was more about two neighbouring nations not getting along. If you want a comparison try Britain and Ireland, with economic disparity added, as was the case with UK/Eire in the past. Not a perfect analogy but you have a history of conflict and a poorer country blaming the other together with economic migration. France`s intransigence re CAP probably feeds population movement. I was not going for an all out explanation of France`s problems.

From a civil order point of view, much of Britain does benefit from not having too many towns with two rival ethnic or sectarian groups living "side by side" but with basically a wall between them. That does happen in the north but in much of the UK there is a decent amount of dispersal from many commonwealth and other countries that precludes one group rivalling or conflicting with another. I still believe that continuing mass immigration is an economic negative overall. The people who are citizens here have come in good faith, are equals and are welcome as far as I am concerned.

The interwar period saw a Germany that never really re-gained constitutional stability, and the Nazis eventually exploited this by burning down the Reichstag and blaming it on the opposition. It was not certain in the 20`s though this would happen. Le Penn I am sure is wondering if he can benefit and will probably do better in the polls. But France is alot more stable than Germany c 1929 and the french other parties may actually learn to cooperate now. There hasn`t been a major revolution in France since 1871 though riots were quite common in the 1960s.

morlock · 09-11-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooveOp

Quote:

Originally Posted by morlock

Please don’t tell me you’re accusing the Front Nationale of being ‘nazis’ – they have Jewish and even Arab members!

Yes - and certain Jews worked for the National Socialists too but what does that prove?

One thing that you can always rely on is that people will never fail to surprise you with the stupid things that they do.

It may suit your purposes to suggest that the FN are 'decent chaps' who represent the 'silent majority' <vomit> and who are fighting to re-establish law and order in France but the facts don't support that view.

With only a small amount of digging anyone can quickly discover criminal records and a whole unsavoury side to the good old FN - very similar to their bothers in arms in the BNP actually.

Most people will be able to recognise the difference between people in fear of their lives collaborating with a brutal occupying force and individuals voluntarily joining a political party to effect change in their country. The fact you don’t seem able to is worrying.

As for your apparent belief that anyone who opposes multiracialism/multiculturalism automatically transforms INTO phpbb_a rabid, jackbooted Nazi eager to shove everyone INTO phpbb_concentration camps, perhaps you should lay off the tabloids for a while!

smooveOp · 09-11-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morlock

As for your apparent belief that anyone who opposes multiracialism/multiculturalism automatically transforms INTO phpbb_a rabid, jackbooted Nazi eager to shove everyone INTO phpbb_concentration camps, perhaps you should lay off the tabloids for a while!

Is it really that apparent?

Anyone who actually bothered to read my posts (instead of trying to put words in my mouth because I'm clearly 'anti-BNP') will know that I am an unashamed opponent of multiculturalism. :evil:

In fact, I was so anti political correctness and multiculturalism that I was moved to become a member of Veritas for a while because I couldn't see these issues being dealt effectively with by any other mainstream political party.

But, let's bring this back to France.

I'm very concerned about recent developments and I'll try to explain why.

I was always very attracted by the notion of a secular state which ignored religious differences between people. In fact I still am.

It appeared to work for almost 200 years too but it has taken a large Muslim minority to make that system unworkable. And any Mods reading this, sorry that that is how I see the current situation in France and so I believe that it's relevant to this thread.

Why unworkable? Because any changes or new laws that recognise differences between people based on religious or racial grounds will weaken the very foundations of the French Republic.

We can feel so smug over here in the UK can't we? We allow virtually anyone to take offence at anything anyone says - we've even had several cases involving pagans recently (sorry - I'm not very politically correct myself).

Do we all feel confident that we live in a cohesive society? Not judging from the posts we read on this forum we don't.

The French system worked for a while but clearly, it is unable to function with the presence of large and very different minorities.

So, in conclusion, I feel very confused about the best way forward.

Would it be better for France to adopt the American 'melting pot' model?

The real problem is that we're running out of working models. And that is very difficult to face up to because all that would be left then is acceptance that people cannot live together.

And being an optimist, I can't accept that bleak outlook.

Angryjohn · 09-11-2005, 04:42 PM

I've heard many long term solutions to problems such as this, each speculative and with no garuntee for success.

But what is the short term solution? How should the french establishment regain control in the short term, in order to implement what ever long term solution they have in mind?

mkpdavies · 09-11-2005, 04:56 PM

http://www.frontnational.com/

I don't normally link to sites like this, but this video on the front of the FN site, is going to strike chords.

God help France.

smooveOp · 09-11-2005, 05:09 PM

<gulp>

God help us all Matt!

If they play their cards right...

It doesn't bear thinking about does it?

smooveOp · 09-11-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angryjohn

But what is the short term solution? How should the french establishment regain control in the short term, in order to implement what ever long term solution they have in mind?

Some interesting questions John and I think that a simple "impose a curfew" will not get to the heart of the problem although it will scale the riots down a bit.

I believe that this violence is being co-ordinated and to stop it, the police will have to get hold of the ringleaders.

This means that they will have to use intelligence to entrap the people behind this. From what I've read they are keeping in touch via the internet (yes - probably on forums a bit like this one) and by mobile phone.

As the arrest of the failed London bomber in Italy demonstrated, the police have now have access to an enormous amount of technology and I imagine that this will be used in the hunt for the leaders.

I'm sure that anyone reading this who has experience in the forces or in the police will agree that there will be far fewer 'brave heros' once the leaders have been taken out.

mkpdavies · 09-11-2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.ph...27032900&par=0

Paris, 9 Nov. (AKI) -

Quote:

The French interior minister has ordered the deportation of all foreigners arrested for taking part in the riots that have wracked the country over the last two weeks. Almost a thousand people have been arrested in the last three nights alone in violence which has mostly broken out in deprived areas with large African and Arab immigrant communities. Nicolas Sarkozy's controversial decision follows the granting of emergency powers to the police and local authorities to impose night-time curfews in an effort to tackle the unrest.

No brainer of the century if you ask me. It's one thing your own citizens rioting, but foreign nationals, the exit is thatta way!

smooveOp · 10-11-2005, 10:45 AM

Sarkozy has more guts than most modern politicians.

A lot of people outside of the corridors of power talk about measures like this but very few within those corridors ever do anything.

He's an unusual politician because he doesn't worry about being controversial.

In the Sarkozy v de Villepan contest, I make that at least 2 - 0 to Sarkozy based on what we've seen in the last 2 weeks.

09-11-2005, 04:56 PM	#26 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,837 Party: Libertarian Party	http://www.frontnational.com/ I don't normally link to sites like this, but this video on the front of the FN site, is going to strike chords. God help France. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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09-11-2005, 01:51 PM	#22 (permalink)
Tom Collier Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 359	Smoove op, my point was more about two neighbouring nations not getting along. If you want a comparison try Britain and Ireland, with economic disparity added, as was the case with UK/Eire in the past. Not a perfect analogy but you have a history of conflict and a poorer country blaming the other together with economic migration. France`s intransigence re CAP probably feeds population movement. I was not going for an all out explanation of France`s problems. From a civil order point of view, much of Britain does benefit from not having too many towns with two rival ethnic or sectarian groups living "side by side" but with basically a wall between them. That does happen in the north but in much of the UK there is a decent amount of dispersal from many commonwealth and other countries that precludes one group rivalling or conflicting with another. I still believe that continuing mass immigration is an economic negative overall. The people who are citizens here have come in good faith, are equals and are welcome as far as I am concerned. The interwar period saw a Germany that never really re-gained constitutional stability, and the Nazis eventually exploited this by burning down the Reichstag and blaming it on the opposition. It was not certain in the 20`s though this would happen. Le Penn I am sure is wondering if he can benefit and will probably do better in the polls. But France is alot more stable than Germany c 1929 and the french other parties may actually learn to cooperate now. There hasn`t been a major revolution in France since 1871 though riots were quite common in the 1960s.

09-11-2005, 04:42 PM	#25 (permalink)
Angryjohn Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 309	I've heard many long term solutions to problems such as this, each speculative and with no garuntee for success. But what is the short term solution? How should the french establishment regain control in the short term, in order to implement what ever long term solution they have in mind?

09-11-2005, 05:09 PM	#27 (permalink)
smooveOp Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Middlesex Posts: 571	<gulp> God help us all Matt! If they play their cards right... It doesn't bear thinking about does it?

10-11-2005, 10:45 AM	#30 (permalink)
smooveOp Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Middlesex Posts: 571	Sarkozy has more guts than most modern politicians. A lot of people outside of the corridors of power talk about measures like this but very few within those corridors ever do anything. He's an unusual politician because he doesn't worry about being controversial. In the Sarkozy v de Villepan contest, I make that at least 2 - 0 to Sarkozy based on what we've seen in the last 2 weeks.