smooveOp

Perhaps to avoid getting stuck in a rut too early on, I'l make some observations of my own.

France itself clearly has a lot to answer for. The policies that it pursues both at home and in the wider context of the EU have alienated many people - especially on this forum. :wink:

Some of these articles about the riots are quoting local unemployment rates of 40%! That is quite staggering.

Now could part of the problem, by any chance, be anything to do with France's restrictive labour laws? I'm sure that they must play a part in this.

France has been stagnating for the past few years with low wages and high taxes and high unemployment (compared to the UK). It's also very difficult for foreign companies to operate in France. I've heard anecdotally that it's very difficult to lay anyone off there.

Could at least part for the problem be economic I wonder?

morlock

It’s undoubtedly true that economic circumstances will have played a part in this. But so too has the perception of those of North African descent who believe they have been discriminated against in a institutionally racist society etc etc ad nauseum

Long term unemployment is a social evil that causes social problems in any society, usually manifesting themselves as a gradual rise in petty crime. The kind of sustained, mass rioting we’ve seen in Paris, however, is symptomatic of deeper, underlying problems. And most people know it. Unfortunately, censorship –whether self-imposed or imposed by the state – stifles discussion on this issue.

Just because the majority of the rioters happened to be born in France doesn’t make them French, any more they would be Japanese if by some circumstance they were born there.

How stable or cohesive can multiracial/multicultural societies ever really be?

smooveOp

Well, I'm an optimist, I think that response counts as partial agreement at least.

I also have some other root causes of the problem to consider.

Could it be that the French Republic itself is at fault?

Perhaps it is simply too rigid. People are either French... or nothing.

'Nothing' is so unthinkable to the French state that they don't even keep official stats on race or ethnic origin on the basis that everyone is French.

In this way they have been blind to problems for years. How could the government even tell that sections of their society were underperforming?

The secular French state may have been perfect for times in which it was designed for but does it/can it work in the 21st century?

morlock

Problem is, our politicians have professed ‘optimism’ for decades (whether this has been out of blind faith or cowardice to do anything to solve the problem is incidental). Actually, rather like the EU, they started out by saying that a multiracial society would be wonderful and that those who opposed it were ‘scaremongers’. Then once problems started to appear we were assured it was just temporary. Now it has become evident that the whole social engineering experiment has been a disaster we’re told we have no choice and have to accept it.

Seems like a pretty good case for direct democracy in my opinion!

The root cause of the problem is multiracialism, whether the multicultural variety or the ‘inclusive’ sort. No such society can ever be stable or have social cohesion with such a massive fault line running through it.

Tom Collier

I am certain the problem is partly economic. It is purely a wild guess as I do not know anyone in France right now but the economic migration caused by French agricultural protection and food dumping in north africa might have produced a situation where 3rd generation immigrants are coming INTO phpbb_contact with new waves even less well off and not in love with their host nation. Spain has a similar problem with Morrocco. Alienation between peoples next door to each other is generally more fractious than distant disputes.

smooveOp

Well, let's assume that you're right for one moment (and, as you know, I don't think that way).

According to that type of argument, China will inevitably emerge as the dominant world power in the years to come as it's (largely, though not entirely) a monocultural society.

That would be 'end of story' for the rest of the planet.

Somehow, I don't buy that.

I work in a busy office. As I glance round while (secretly) typing this I can see several people who clearly have familiy origins from outside of these shores. By and large we all get on here and any problems are more to do with personality rather than race or culture. Perhaps I'm lucky?

France is clearly in difficulty over a number of issues and it seems that we're looking at a long-term malaise for which there are no quick fixes.

We've all done our history at school and learnt about how the National Socialists were able to exploit bad economic conditions and the associated breakdown in law and order to propel themselves INTO phpbb_power in Germany.

I just hope that history isn't about to repeat itself.

morlock

One of the inevitable consequences of a multiracial society is friction and instability, often erupting INTO phpbb_violence. But instead of dealing with the root cause of the problem, politicians try to ‘keep the lid on things’ by enacting repressive laws designed to stifle freedom of speech and eroding civil liberties.

We already have the Race Relations Act on the statute books. There will also be the new 'anti-terror laws' as well as the law against ‘incitement to religious hatred’. Other laws will undoubtedly follow.

Such erosion of democracy, civil rights and freedoms is directly due to the state trying to contain a worsening situation whilst refusing to deal with the actual cause of the problems. Prolonged civil disorder will not propel “nazis” to power. What it will do is provide the opportunity for a hyper-reactionary backlash from the establishment, giving them the excuse to enact even more repressive measures and take away more of our freedoms. In this scenario any political dissidents, whatever their politics, will probably find themselves in the same gulag!

smooveOp

That's exactly what it will do.

Make no mistake, we will see Le Pen's National Front making considerable gains in the next local elections in France (2006 I think) directly as a result of this disorder.

IceDragon

The problem is Le Pen said that what is happening no wouldn't happen if he was President. It has happened and many people will be thinking that maybe they should have voted for the FN.

morlock

Please don’t tell me you’re accusing the Front Nationale of being ‘nazis’ – they have Jewish and even Arab members! Such accusations devalue any rational discussion and are best left to the sensationalism of the tabloids.

As a result of this rioting the FN probably will win more support – and why shouldn’t it? What are the other parties offering by way of a solution? But if society shows sign of a complete breakdown due to massive and sustained lawlessness then I still think the establishment will act with harsh, repressive measures to preserve their own status and power. In that context all those outside the establishment will be deemed to be subversives and dealt with together as a collective threat to the system.