when does 'unrest' become civil war?

C_steam · 06-11-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

France has suffered its heaviest riot damage yet as warnings of tough prison sentences failed to deter arsonists.
Police reported 1,295 vehicle burnings and made 312 arrests as unrest in African and Arab communities spread to Strasbourg, Toulouse and Nantes.

On the 10th consecutive night of violence, attacks were also reported in central Paris as four cars were set alight on Place de la Republique.

Britannist · 06-11-2005, 09:29 AM

Deport those arrested if found guilty (and their families). Open up a court and start fast-track prosecutions today. Have an airoplane ready at the airport.

Anyone found to have burnt vehicles, smashed windows or caused any damage/injury to any person should be sent to prison and made to work to and earn the money to pay for their fine and subsequent airfare when deported at the end of their sentence.

The police should investigate anyone arrested and found guilty. Who did they work for? Investigate the employer. Do a drugs search of the homes of all those arrested. Interrogate those arrested to find others involved in the riots.

Agent Provocateur · 06-11-2005, 02:02 PM

They're French citizens, they can't be deported. Aside from the fact that no other country is obliged to take them. The comment about deporting their families whether or not they had anything to do with it is despicable.

IceDragon · 06-11-2005, 07:05 PM

The 2 dead brats were and are being constantly tagged onto the end of every news bulletin about the war, sorry this is not a riot, it is civil war, as if they are the cause of a spontaneous demonstration.

Nothing about these actions is spontaneous, it has clearly been planned for weeks if not months beforehand. The bomb factory is a prime example of careful planning.

They are targeting the French economy including the tourist industry, US and UK tourists are now being warned to either avoid certain areas or avoid France completely. Once a country like France loses tourism it loses a huge chunk of it's revenue, not good for a country with a social welfare system like France's.

The usual ogres of the Islamist world such as McDonald's are being attacked as is their transport system.

This is not a riot, this is an uprising, I am surprised that the French don't see it as they did it 200 or so years ago.

mkpdavies · 06-11-2005, 08:04 PM

Certainly it is more than just riots. Factories making petrol bombs, well organised, mutliple locations. There's planning behind it alright.

The question is, will this stay a French problem or will it spread EU wide?

We have had relatively small flair ups in a number of countries recently. Briatain included.

I don't think there is any one fact you can blame, but various groups will try and use this for their own ends. This could turn out to be very very serious.

IceDragon · 06-11-2005, 08:46 PM

This seems to be not a war against people, although they have set fire to a disabled woman on a bus, but mostly against socio-economic targets. I cit the attacks on car dealerships, motor vehicles, train and transport systems, tourism and the media coverage which keeps people away. I think that the tube attacks may have been linked as some people also believe in that 7/7 had an effect on tourism which both the economises of Britain, London in particular and Paris depend on.
I think that we in the west will have the reevaluate the priority we take to both ethnic/religious minorities and our economic futures

Britannist · 06-11-2005, 09:17 PM

Agent P. wrote above: (Quote) They're French citizens, they can't be deported. Aside from the fact that no other country is obliged to take them. The comment about deporting their families whether or not they had anything to do with it is despicable. (End of Quote)

My reply: "Despicable". Don't be ridiculous :evil: . You're getting overly emotional. If a guilty non-French national is found having hurt someone or set fire to a car and they are deported - it's a humanitarian gesture to deport his/her poor family too. The deported guilty person cannot visit his family in France if deported - so it seems humanitarian for the French state to be generous enough to pay for their deportation so all can be re-united. Preferably in a country that does not tolerate car burning, looting or physical attacks during riots.

How would you like it if it was your car among the 600 burned in the riots last night? I bet you'd soon find that "despicable" - waking up this morning and finding your vehicle burnt out and going past your window on the top of a truck heading for the local scrap heap.

Agent Provocateur · 06-11-2005, 10:05 PM

Britannist, there's nothing wrong with deporting non-citizen criminals but most of these rioters are French citizens, you don't seem to make a distinction between immigrants and citizens.

As for deporting their families, yes I stand by what I said. You can't punish a whole family for the actions of one family member, haven't you heard of a thing called 'indivdual responsibility'?

Christina · 07-11-2005, 01:46 AM

You can only punish a whole family for the wrongdoing of one family member (or more) by ceasing to be a Western Democracy and resorting to a kind of behaviour more akin to the Ancient Near East. Knee-jerk reactions, methinks, and quite understandable, but not the solution.

Britannist · 07-11-2005, 04:53 AM

In response to Agent P.'s last posting - I have to remind Agent P. of what I said in my earlier posting of Sunday 6.11.2005 at 9.17 pm: (Quote) The deported guilty person cannot visit his family in France if deported - so it seems humanitarian for the French state to be generous enough to pay for their deportation so all can be re-united. (End of Quote).

I would have thought most wives and children would be grateful beyond description to the French state for deporting them (i.e. paying their airfare to return to their originating country) if the husband/father is deported after being found guilty of setting cars on fire (arson) and/or injuring people. After it all, it can only be in a sham marriage (a marriage carried out to gain French citizenship) that the wife prefers to stay in Paris after the husband has been deported. The wife knowing full well that she lives on a poor housing estate and cannot afford to visit the deported husband.

Agent P. seems more concerned about the rights of people convicted of burning cars than the victims of these crimes. He'll be wanting Chirac to award the Legion of Honour to the rioters next :evil: :x :shock: .

06-11-2005, 09:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	What French Government should do Deport those arrested if found guilty (and their families). Open up a court and start fast-track prosecutions today. Have an airoplane ready at the airport. Anyone found to have burnt vehicles, smashed windows or caused any damage/injury to any person should be sent to prison and made to work to and earn the money to pay for their fine and subsequent airfare when deported at the end of their sentence. The police should investigate anyone arrested and found guilty. Who did they work for? Investigate the employer. Do a drugs search of the homes of all those arrested. Interrogate those arrested to find others involved in the riots.

06-11-2005, 08:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,837 Party: Libertarian Party	Certainly it is more than just riots. Factories making petrol bombs, well organised, mutliple locations. There's planning behind it alright. The question is, will this stay a French problem or will it spread EU wide? We have had relatively small flair ups in a number of countries recently. Briatain included. I don't think there is any one fact you can blame, but various groups will try and use this for their own ends. This could turn out to be very very serious. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

06-11-2005, 09:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Is burning your car "despicable"? Agent P. wrote above: (Quote) They're French citizens, they can't be deported. Aside from the fact that no other country is obliged to take them. The comment about deporting their families whether or not they had anything to do with it is despicable. (End of Quote) My reply: "Despicable". Don't be ridiculous :evil: . You're getting overly emotional. If a guilty non-French national is found having hurt someone or set fire to a car and they are deported - it's a humanitarian gesture to deport his/her poor family too. The deported guilty person cannot visit his family in France if deported - so it seems humanitarian for the French state to be generous enough to pay for their deportation so all can be re-united. Preferably in a country that does not tolerate car burning, looting or physical attacks during riots. How would you like it if it was your car among the 600 burned in the riots last night? I bet you'd soon find that "despicable" - waking up this morning and finding your vehicle burnt out and going past your window on the top of a truck heading for the local scrap heap.

07-11-2005, 04:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Rights of victims come before those of criminals In response to Agent P.'s last posting - I have to remind Agent P. of what I said in my earlier posting of Sunday 6.11.2005 at 9.17 pm: (Quote) The deported guilty person cannot visit his family in France if deported - so it seems humanitarian for the French state to be generous enough to pay for their deportation so all can be re-united. (End of Quote). I would have thought most wives and children would be grateful beyond description to the French state for deporting them (i.e. paying their airfare to return to their originating country) if the husband/father is deported after being found guilty of setting cars on fire (arson) and/or injuring people. After it all, it can only be in a sham marriage (a marriage carried out to gain French citizenship) that the wife prefers to stay in Paris after the husband has been deported. The wife knowing full well that she lives on a poor housing estate and cannot afford to visit the deported husband. Agent P. seems more concerned about the rights of people convicted of burning cars than the victims of these crimes. He'll be wanting Chirac to award the Legion of Honour to the rioters next :evil: :x :shock: .

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06-11-2005, 02:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Agent Provocateur Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 101	They're French citizens, they can't be deported. Aside from the fact that no other country is obliged to take them. The comment about deporting their families whether or not they had anything to do with it is despicable.

06-11-2005, 07:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
IceDragon Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,048	The 2 dead brats were and are being constantly tagged onto the end of every news bulletin about the war, sorry this is not a riot, it is civil war, as if they are the cause of a spontaneous demonstration. Nothing about these actions is spontaneous, it has clearly been planned for weeks if not months beforehand. The bomb factory is a prime example of careful planning. They are targeting the French economy including the tourist industry, US and UK tourists are now being warned to either avoid certain areas or avoid France completely. Once a country like France loses tourism it loses a huge chunk of it's revenue, not good for a country with a social welfare system like France's. The usual ogres of the Islamist world such as McDonald's are being attacked as is their transport system. This is not a riot, this is an uprising, I am surprised that the French don't see it as they did it 200 or so years ago.

06-11-2005, 08:46 PM	#6 (permalink)
IceDragon Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,048	This seems to be not a war against people, although they have set fire to a disabled woman on a bus, but mostly against socio-economic targets. I cit the attacks on car dealerships, motor vehicles, train and transport systems, tourism and the media coverage which keeps people away. I think that the tube attacks may have been linked as some people also believe in that 7/7 had an effect on tourism which both the economises of Britain, London in particular and Paris depend on. I think that we in the west will have the reevaluate the priority we take to both ethnic/religious minorities and our economic futures

06-11-2005, 10:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
Agent Provocateur Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 101	Britannist, there's nothing wrong with deporting non-citizen criminals but most of these rioters are French citizens, you don't seem to make a distinction between immigrants and citizens. As for deporting their families, yes I stand by what I said. You can't punish a whole family for the actions of one family member, haven't you heard of a thing called 'indivdual responsibility'?

07-11-2005, 01:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
Christina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Eccleston, St Helens Posts: 1,529	You can only punish a whole family for the wrongdoing of one family member (or more) by ceasing to be a Western Democracy and resorting to a kind of behaviour more akin to the Ancient Near East. Knee-jerk reactions, methinks, and quite understandable, but not the solution.