when does 'unrest' become civil war?

mkpdavies · 07-11-2005, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Car torchings are a daily fact of life in France's tough suburbs, with thousands burned each month, police say. Police intelligence has recorded nearly 70,000 incidents of urban violence this year, including attacks on police and rescue services, arson, throwing projectiles, clashes between gangs, joy-riding and property destruction, Le Monde reported

.

This has all been bubbling for sometime it would seem.

Agent Provocateur · 07-11-2005, 11:10 AM

Britannist you didn't address a single thing I said so I'll say it again.

The rioters are not immigrants but citizens. There is such a thing as individual responsiblity. If you can't address these points there's little point in continuing this.

Hartlepool · 07-11-2005, 11:57 AM

AP,explain how you know that these people are not immigrants or give a link to show what you say is correct.

Thanks,

Britannist · 07-11-2005, 12:01 PM

In response to Agent P. who wrote (quote) Britannist you didn't address a single thing I said so I'll say it again.

The rioters are not immigrants but citizens. There is such a thing as individual responsiblity. If you can't address these points there's little point in continuing this. (End of Quote)

My reply: Investigations will ultimately show a number of people born outside France who are guilty of crimes. Those that were born in France and who have broken the law should be dealt with in the same manner that any citizen of France would be for committing arson (at least 1300 cars have been set alight).

On the matter of individual responsibility - only those suspected of crimes should be arrested and taken to court. If they are French citizens and their families are found not to be involved in law breaking (including not aiding the crime) then only the person from the relevent family who is thought to have broken the law should be charged.

Agent P. - you still haven't told me how you'd feel if they'd 'trashed' your car :evil: ?

Agent Provocateur · 07-11-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

AP,explain how you know that these people are not immigrants or give a link to show what you say is correct.

Thanks,

Scotgirl?

. I'm not sure what you'd consider as proof. It's well known that the majority of young people of Arab or African descent in the banlieues are French born. Here's part of an essay on the banlieues.

Quote:

'I watched their proceedings in the company of old immigrants from Algeria and Morocco, who had come to France in the early 1960s. They too lived in Les Tarterets and had witnessed its descent INTO phpbb_a state of low-level insurgency. They were so horrified by daily life that they were trying to leave, to escape their own children and grandchildren: but once having fallen INTO phpbb_the clutches of the system of public housing, they were trapped. They wanted to transfer to a cité, if such existed, where the new generation did not rule: but they were without leverage—or piston—in the giant system of patronage that is the French state. And so they had to stay put, puzzled, alarmed, incredulous, and bitter at what their own offspring had become, so very different from what they had hoped and expected. They were better Frenchmen than either their children or grandchildren'

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_...arbarians.html

Clearly the majority of them are French born.

Hartlepool · 07-11-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent Provocateur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

AP,explain how you know that these people are not immigrants or give a link to show what you say is correct.

Thanks,

Scotgirl?

. I'm not sure what you'd consider as proof. It's well known that the majority of young people of Arab or African descent in the banlieues are French born. Here's part of an essay on the banlieues.

Quote:

'I watched their proceedings in the company of old immigrants from Algeria and Morocco, who had come to France in the early 1960s. They too lived in Les Tarterets and had witnessed its descent INTO phpbb_a state of low-level insurgency. They were so horrified by daily life that they were trying to leave, to escape their own children and grandchildren: but once having fallen INTO phpbb_the clutches of the system of public housing, they were trapped. They wanted to transfer to a cité, if such existed, where the new generation did not rule: but they were without leverage—or piston—in the giant system of patronage that is the French state. And so they had to stay put, puzzled, alarmed, incredulous, and bitter at what their own offspring had become, so very different from what they had hoped and expected. They were better Frenchmen than either their children or grandchildren'

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_...arbarians.html

Clearly the majority of them are French born.

Having lived some time in all three Countries you have mentioned,I beg to differ,the majority are NOT French born. They are a mix of mainly Algerian,Maroccan,generally North African with some French born.They are, in the main, Algerians.

Agent Provocateur · 07-11-2005, 03:07 PM

Where's your link Hartlepool? :wink: I've corresponded with people who've lived in France and they've told me most young people in the banlieues are French born, especially the trouble makers.

Hartlepool · 07-11-2005, 04:15 PM

So AgPro, you ask me for a link after saying stuff like" I spoke with some people in France and they told me its the young people from the suburbs who are causing all this trouble and they are French born citizens" Link indeed,what do you want from me,a sworn afadavit?(spelling?)

Agent Provocateur · 07-11-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

what do you want from me,a sworn afadavit?(spelling?)

Yeah that would help!

Hartlepool · 07-11-2005, 04:33 PM

OK,Its in the mail.

07-11-2005, 12:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Arsonists in Paris and other French cities In response to Agent P. who wrote (quote) Britannist you didn't address a single thing I said so I'll say it again. The rioters are not immigrants but citizens. There is such a thing as individual responsiblity. If you can't address these points there's little point in continuing this. (End of Quote) My reply: Investigations will ultimately show a number of people born outside France who are guilty of crimes. Those that were born in France and who have broken the law should be dealt with in the same manner that any citizen of France would be for committing arson (at least 1300 cars have been set alight). On the matter of individual responsibility - only those suspected of crimes should be arrested and taken to court. If they are French citizens and their families are found not to be involved in law breaking (including not aiding the crime) then only the person from the relevent family who is thought to have broken the law should be charged. Agent P. - you still haven't told me how you'd feel if they'd 'trashed' your car :evil: ?

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07-11-2005, 11:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
Agent Provocateur Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 101	Britannist you didn't address a single thing I said so I'll say it again. The rioters are not immigrants but citizens. There is such a thing as individual responsiblity. If you can't address these points there's little point in continuing this.

07-11-2005, 11:57 AM	#13 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,785 Party: Free England Party	AP,explain how you know that these people are not immigrants or give a link to show what you say is correct. Thanks,

07-11-2005, 03:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
Agent Provocateur Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 101	Where's your link Hartlepool? :wink: I've corresponded with people who've lived in France and they've told me most young people in the banlieues are French born, especially the trouble makers.

07-11-2005, 04:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,785 Party: Free England Party	So AgPro, you ask me for a link after saying stuff like" I spoke with some people in France and they told me its the young people from the suburbs who are causing all this trouble and they are French born citizens" Link indeed,what do you want from me,a sworn afadavit?(spelling?)

07-11-2005, 04:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,785 Party: Free England Party	OK,Its in the mail.