Lib Dems 3 best reasons for joining the EU

Matt O'Grady · 06-12-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

1. Peace. As long as the strong trading links remain, the EU is unnecessary.

Point is though, with many states that have not been at peace there are very few trading links and little outside investment. The EU is well placed to start these links and work to bring about peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

2. Economy. The EU works both for and against free trade. It works well for trade amongst EU member states, but is bad for global trade. A strong free trade agreement with the EU would be just as good for us, and may allow us to negotiate better deals with countries outside the EU. Swings and roundabouts.

True, but if we lobby the EU to improve global free trade, we would be getting the best of both worlds. Being part of a large trading block also increases our influence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

3. The Social Chapter. We are perfectly capable of creating our own labour laws and human rights legislation. We do not need EU laws that cannot take INTO phpbb_consideration our local conditions, traditions and economy.

Yup. But I don't trust our politicans to do this. Why did it take the EU to do it?

mkpdavies · 06-12-2004, 03:49 PM

Anthony has already said what I would say, but I would also add that all these benefits come at a massive cost.

1. Basque seperatists already cause mayhem in Spain, as they want the right to self-determination. Could this not become the case all over the EU, as certain regions feel unfairly treated, and resort to extreme measures to gain independence again.

2. The cost of removing exchange rates (which over time balance themselves out anyway!) is immense. Our economy will be tied INTO phpbb_the rest of Europe, meaning we lose all the flexabilty of being able to change interest rates, set taxes etc etc, to fine tune the economy to suit our country. Look at the results of the introduction of the Euro on the economy as a whole and Europe is falling back, while Britain is powering on. Thats even with the fact we have loads of EU directives clogging up our system and holding us back! I would suggest it is like wanting to upgrade your car, so you give over your engine, to get some nice alloys in return. Not a great deal.

3. If a British govenment though a social chapter was required, then they should implement their own version. They should not need to outsource the resposibilty to a central organisation that will be trying to create a one size fits all solution. It's all about the abiulty to fine tune things for this countries benefit. The stronger Britain is, the better for Europe too, as we will buy more things from them.

Anthony Butcher · 06-12-2004, 03:54 PM

Quote:

The EU is well placed to start these links and work to bring about peace

True, but that doesn't require our membership. We aren't in danger of a war, nor are we going to attack our allies in Europe. The EU can carry on pushing peace and trade without Britain being consumed.

Quote:

Being part of a large trading block also increases our influence

I think that it actually reduces it. As a member, we have no voice. As an independent nation with one of the largest economies in the world, we have far more influence.

Quote:

Yup. But I don't trust our politicans to do this. Why did it take the EU to do it?

Perhaps because our public never voted for it. That should tell you more about the state of democracy in the EU. If it was something that the public really wanted, it would be included in party manifestoes. The problem is that you are advocating the imposition of policy by the EU, just because it happens to concur with your political beliefs. If the EU demanded ID cards, would you be so happy about that?

mkpdavies · 06-12-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Point is though, with many states that have not been at peace there are very few trading links and little outside investment. The EU is well placed to start these links and work to bring about peace

Why is the EU any better placed than Britain on it's own?

Quote:

True, but if we lobby the EU to improve global free trade, we would be getting the best of both worlds. Being part of a large trading block also increases our influence

Why lobby the EU, when we can just do it ourselves? When it suits Britains interests, why don't we team up with whatever countries we want to acheive our aims, rather than consign ourselves to straight jacket, such as the EU, where our voice will be just a small one amongst many. We may be in the minority and get forced INTO phpbb_supporting things we do not want!

Quote:

Yup. But I don't trust our politicans to do this. Why did it take the EU to do it?

Thats a good argument for not voting for a particular party, but not for handing over full control to an either more distant power. At least we can throw the government out if we don't like what they are doing, this won't be the case if we keep sliding further INTO phpbb_the EU.

Matt O'Grady · 06-12-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

Anthony has already said what I would say, but I would also add that all these benefits come at a massive cost.

1. Basque seperatists already cause mayhem in Spain, as they want the right to self-determination. Could this not become the case all over the EU, as certain regions feel unfairly treated, and resort to extreme measures to gain independence again.

Ummm....no. Probably not. Pretty weak arguement there isn't it? :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

2. The cost of removing exchange rates (which over time balance themselves out anyway!) is immense. Our economy will be tied INTO phpbb_the rest of Europe, meaning we lose all the flexabilty of being able to change interest rates, set taxes etc etc, to fine tune the economy to suit our country. Look at the results of the introduction of the Euro on the economy as a whole and Europe is falling back, while Britain is powering on. Thats even with the fact we have loads of EU directives clogging up our system and holding us back! I would suggest it is like wanting to upgrade your car, so you give over your engine, to get some nice alloys in return. Not a great deal.

What does need to be considered with interest rates is that Britain has a two-tier economy. In the south, high interest rates are needed to slow down the housing market in places like London, while in the North low interest rates are needed to prompt economic growth, so whatever the interest rate set by the ECB, parts of Britain are likely to be suited to it, parts aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

3. If a British govenment though a social chapter was required, then they should implement their own version. They should not need to outsource the resposibilty to a central organisation that will be trying to create a one size fits all solution. It's all about the abiulty to fine tune things for this countries benefit. The stronger Britain is, the better for Europe too, as we will buy more things from them.

We do have that ability. We set our own minimum wage remember?

Matt O'Grady · 06-12-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

[Why is the EU any better placed than Britain on it's own?

Because we are a big powerful country within the EU, so we make it better! Plus we are more likely to benefit from increased trade and the ability to invest in the country when it starts to join the EU, if we are also a member

Quote:

Why lobby the EU, when we can just do it ourselves? When it suits Britains interests, why don't we team up with whatever countries we want to acheive our aims, rather than consign ourselves to straight jacket, such as the EU, where our voice will be just a small one amongst many. We may be in the minority and get forced INTO phpbb_supporting things we do not want!

Because if we can be in a single market with Europe, and a free market with the rest of the world, we will be in a better position than just being in a free market with everyone

Quote:

Thats a good argument for not voting for a particular party, but not for handing over full control to an either more distant power. At least we can throw the government out if we don't like what they are doing, this won't be the case if we keep sliding further INTO phpbb_the EU.

But we can just vote for a party like UKIP who wants to withdraw from the EU?

Bellatrix · 06-12-2004, 04:12 PM

It's very interesting that the liberal democrats are promoting poverty and death in the developing world. Because that's what trade blocs do. And as for the UK benefitting from trade within the EU bloc - you are aware that we do most of our trading with America and actually have a trade deficit with the EU?

So, it's entirely down to the EU that we have peace. Right. Nothing to do with communism vs capitalism? Nato? the Cold War? Nuclear armaments? the UN? The EU is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to promoting peace. It actually incites hatred because it is trying to pretend cultural identities are unimportant and don't exist.

I always find it odd why people could say anything good about the social chapter. It makes labour markets inflexible and stops job creation and efficiency. If you want higher wages, then stop the influx.

I also don't accept your excuse that they are weak because you are 'tired'. I'm tired and I have to live in Brussels where nothing works. They are weak arguments because the EU is an unacceptable insitution which wastes hueg amounts of public money and is simply a huge form of cornyism and nepotism.

Matt O'Grady · 06-12-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrix

It's very interesting that the liberal democrats are promoting poverty and death in the developing world. Because that's what trade blocs do. And as for the UK benefitting from trade within the EU bloc - you are aware that we do most of our trading with America and actually have a trade deficit with the EU?

So, it's entirely down to the EU that we have peace. Right. Nothing to do with communism vs capitalism? Nato? the Cold War? Nuclear armaments? the UN? The EU is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to promoting peace. It actually incites hatred because it is trying to pretend cultural identities are unimportant and don't exist.

I always find it odd why people could say anything good about the social chapter. It makes labour markets inflexible and stops job creation and efficiency. If you want higher wages, then stop the influx.

I also don't accept your excuse that they are weak because you are 'tired'. I'm tired and I have to live in Brussels where nothing works. They are weak arguments because the EU is an unacceptable insitution which wastes hueg amounts of public money and is simply a huge form of cornyism and nepotism.

Ohhhh, someone is bitchy! Firstly, yes, trade blocks are not a good thing in terms of trade with developing countries. This is something the EU is also able to look at and promote better trading with these countries. The EU would be a far stronger voice for this cause than Britain on it's own.

As for the peace arguement, the EU is an example of an institution that would be high-lighted by neo-liberal institutionalists as an instiution that has been benefical for peace and stability. Others would include NATO and the UN and of course changes in the international enviroment effect peace and stability!

Stop the influx of what? I'm not sure if this is an economics term or not, economics is not my strong point!

And like it or not, I'm tired and when I'm tired, I ramble and talk b******s, so if you're not gonna be friendly, s** off!

mkpdavies · 06-12-2004, 04:45 PM

The main gist I am getting from your arguments Matt, is you are looking at an ideological utopia, where everything runs smoothly, there are no self interests involved and that Britain will have a massive say in how the EU develops. I am sorry to say that this just is not going to happen. As long as people are involved, greed and self-interest will alway have a big part to play. Communism is a noble idea at heart, but we all know that it just doesn't work out in reality, as people always want more and those that gain power, will almost always do anything to maintain it.

This goes on now anyway, but by creating an even bigger political entitiy, we are in danger of making things a lot worse. Be honest Matt, can you really say that the EU is moving in the right direction when it comes to democracy and accountabilty? The EU is a monster, filled with red tape, and gravy train riders who are only interested in what they can get for themselves. Human nature at its worst again. Reforming this will never happen, and the deeper we get in the harder it will be to get out.

Bigger is not always better, and I think Britain needs to keep the flexability of controlling it's own economy, laws and borders, so that we can remain a voice for good in the world. We have been hijacked by a cabal of self-serving career-merchants at the moment. This is not a sign that we should follow their plan of handing over to their mates who run the EU, and will eventualy get this same cabal INTO phpbb_positions of power themselves. It is a sign that Britain needs a new government who puts it's people first.

The fact is the British people now have a choice. The mainstream parties all advocate going further INTO phpbb_the EU. UKIP are the only real choice if you would rather Britain stayed friends with the EU, but ran itself again. Do you think this is such an extreme position to take?

06-12-2004, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Anthony has already said what I would say, but I would also add that all these benefits come at a massive cost. 1. Basque seperatists already cause mayhem in Spain, as they want the right to self-determination. Could this not become the case all over the EU, as certain regions feel unfairly treated, and resort to extreme measures to gain independence again. 2. The cost of removing exchange rates (which over time balance themselves out anyway!) is immense. Our economy will be tied INTO phpbb_the rest of Europe, meaning we lose all the flexabilty of being able to change interest rates, set taxes etc etc, to fine tune the economy to suit our country. Look at the results of the introduction of the Euro on the economy as a whole and Europe is falling back, while Britain is powering on. Thats even with the fact we have loads of EU directives clogging up our system and holding us back! I would suggest it is like wanting to upgrade your car, so you give over your engine, to get some nice alloys in return. Not a great deal. 3. If a British govenment though a social chapter was required, then they should implement their own version. They should not need to outsource the resposibilty to a central organisation that will be trying to create a one size fits all solution. It's all about the abiulty to fine tune things for this countries benefit. The stronger Britain is, the better for Europe too, as we will buy more things from them. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

06-12-2004, 04:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	The main gist I am getting from your arguments Matt, is you are looking at an ideological utopia, where everything runs smoothly, there are no self interests involved and that Britain will have a massive say in how the EU develops. I am sorry to say that this just is not going to happen. As long as people are involved, greed and self-interest will alway have a big part to play. Communism is a noble idea at heart, but we all know that it just doesn't work out in reality, as people always want more and those that gain power, will almost always do anything to maintain it. This goes on now anyway, but by creating an even bigger political entitiy, we are in danger of making things a lot worse. Be honest Matt, can you really say that the EU is moving in the right direction when it comes to democracy and accountabilty? The EU is a monster, filled with red tape, and gravy train riders who are only interested in what they can get for themselves. Human nature at its worst again. Reforming this will never happen, and the deeper we get in the harder it will be to get out. Bigger is not always better, and I think Britain needs to keep the flexability of controlling it's own economy, laws and borders, so that we can remain a voice for good in the world. We have been hijacked by a cabal of self-serving career-merchants at the moment. This is not a sign that we should follow their plan of handing over to their mates who run the EU, and will eventualy get this same cabal INTO phpbb_positions of power themselves. It is a sign that Britain needs a new government who puts it's people first. The fact is the British people now have a choice. The mainstream parties all advocate going further INTO phpbb_the EU. UKIP are the only real choice if you would rather Britain stayed friends with the EU, but ran itself again. Do you think this is such an extreme position to take? __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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06-12-2004, 04:12 PM	#17 (permalink)
Bellatrix Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 623	It's very interesting that the liberal democrats are promoting poverty and death in the developing world. Because that's what trade blocs do. And as for the UK benefitting from trade within the EU bloc - you are aware that we do most of our trading with America and actually have a trade deficit with the EU? So, it's entirely down to the EU that we have peace. Right. Nothing to do with communism vs capitalism? Nato? the Cold War? Nuclear armaments? the UN? The EU is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to promoting peace. It actually incites hatred because it is trying to pretend cultural identities are unimportant and don't exist. I always find it odd why people could say anything good about the social chapter. It makes labour markets inflexible and stops job creation and efficiency. If you want higher wages, then stop the influx. I also don't accept your excuse that they are weak because you are 'tired'. I'm tired and I have to live in Brussels where nothing works. They are weak arguments because the EU is an unacceptable insitution which wastes hueg amounts of public money and is simply a huge form of cornyism and nepotism.