"Many more immigrants on the way to UK say Germans as border controls end"

George · 24-01-2008, 08:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Britannist

I cannot understand why George needs proof that immigration costs the people of our country money.

Because every piece of evidence shows that EU migrants add to the economy, yet here you are stating the opposite.

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The massive east european influx into the London area alone has pushed up rents and property prices and pushed down salaries.

Who told you this? A man in a pub? Did house prices not rise before 2004? What caused it in the 80's? Did thousands of immigrants leaving cause the 90's house price crash?

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As I have written before, east europeans working for less in the UK costs British people jobs leading to unemployment and the dole (and thus higher payments by the Government in social security to the British jobless).

As you have written but failed to prove. The average wage in the UK for a foreign born worker is £424 per week. For a UK born worker it is £395. How does this lead you to conclude that Eastern Europeans are working for less?

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In other words, someone in this country may get work done at a low price by a Pole or Czech but a British person may lose his/her job as a result of the trend in employing east europeans. The Pole does the building work for the British person who is happy at the low price of the work - but the UK taxpayer is penalised as a result because the British person who could have done that work has to claim social security payments on the dole.

All of this rests on the assumption that wages are lower. They are not. The difference in numbers on benefits has also not increased since 2004 so all these Brits being forced out of work are either not claiming benefits or do not exist.

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I recently read that the Poles - having agreed to work here for less than some British people - are now complaining because Romanians and Bulgarians are now offering British people to do manual work for them at less cost than the Poles are charging.

In the Mail, no doubt.

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Such is life in the EU.

If you are serious about looking at the problems immigration causes then you need to look well beyond the EU.

Robin · 24-01-2008, 06:46 PM

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Originally Posted by George

You will of course be able to provide links which do not rely on hearsay and anecdotes.

Yes. And will you do the same ?

Robin · 24-01-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

Because every piece of evidence shows that EU migrants add to the economy, yet here you are stating the opposite.
Every piece ? You have read every piece of evidence. Or just selective reports and statistics ?

Who told you this? A man in a pub? Did house prices not rise before 2004? What caused it in the 80's? Did thousands of immigrants leaving cause the 90's house price crash?
There may have been other causes of house prices rising before. There still may be other causes as well now, but immigration is also having an effect.

As you have written but failed to prove. The average wage in the UK for a foreign born worker is £424 per week. For a UK born worker it is £395. How does this lead you to conclude that Eastern Europeans are working for less?
How did you reach that figure ?

All of this rests on the assumption that wages are lower. They are not. The difference in numbers on benefits has also not increased since 2004 so all these Brits being forced out of work are either not claiming benefits or do not exist.
Or replaced others, which means that we could have had a reduction.

In the Mail, no doubt.

Do you dismiss everything you read in the papers?
If you are serious about looking at the problems immigration causes then you need to look well beyond the EU.

And also at the EU.

Kevin Adamson · 24-01-2008, 07:44 PM

[quote=George;458223]Because every piece of evidence shows that EU migrants add to the economy, yet here you are stating the opposite.

As you have written but failed to prove. The average wage in the UK for a foreign born worker is £424 per week. For a UK born worker it is £395. How does this lead you to conclude that Eastern Europeans are working for less?

All of this rests on the assumption that wages are lower. They are not. The difference in numbers on benefits has also not increased since 2004 so all these Brits being forced out of work are either not claiming benefits or do not exist.

George .You seem to only digest facts that you find on government press releases.Wages for Eastern Eureopean workers obviously vary as they do for everyone else.The company I work for uses polish bricklayers .They are paid £90 a day. £40 a day less than local labour. Apart from getting them to call you personally there is no way to prove this, you will either take my word or you wont.

George · 24-01-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin

Yes. And will you do the same ?

I have.

........

George · 24-01-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin

Every piece ? You have read every piece of evidence. Or just selective reports and statistics ?

Sorry, poor use of English. Every piece I have read. You will note that the three linked to are from a building industry survey, a trade union and a House of Lords report. Hardly selective, just the first three to turn up on google. While not quoting them all I did check the first ten or so and not one has any statistics to back up the view that migrants do not add to the economy. Even Migrationwatch concede that migrants add to the economy. I think they estimated it at 62p per person per year.

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There may have been other causes of house prices rising before. There still may be other causes as well now, but immigration is also having an effect.

I agree immigration probably has an effect but more on rent values than house prices (although obviously rent values themselves also have an effect). Compared with interest rates, taxation levels and the credit squeeze caused by the governments ineptitude in controlling irresponsible lending render any effect from immigration as negligible.

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How did you reach that figure ?

I got it from the Migrationwatch website.

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Or replaced others, which means that we could have had a reduction.

That's possible. However, while so many people are content to live on benefits it is hard to believe that many would have taken available jobs. I ran a catering business for 15 years (1992-2007) and for every Brit that applied for a job I had about twenty foreign nationals apply.

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Do you dismiss everything you read in the papers?

No, I understand it.

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And also at the EU.

There are many, many problems within the EU which need to be tackled. Freedom of movement is not one of them.

George · 24-01-2008, 09:14 PM

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Originally Posted by ranter

George .You seem to only digest facts that you find on government press releases.Wages for Eastern Eureopean workers obviously vary as they do for everyone else.The company I work for uses polish bricklayers .They are paid £90 a day. £40 a day less than local labour. Apart from getting them to call you personally there is no way to prove this, you will either take my word or you wont.

I'm not talking about one company or anecdotes. I'm talking about the nationwide economy as a whole and figures from a range of sources, none of which back up your view. While I accept that some will accept just about anything to get a job, particularly those 'fresh off the boat', it doesn't take them long to realise they are actually worth far more in terms of wages than their British counterparts.

Here in Poland the system of technical colleges is still going. To call himself a bricklayer a Pole needs to undergo four years of training. A Brit needs to borrow a trowel.

Kevin Adamson · 24-01-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

I'm not talking about one company or anecdotes. I'm talking about the nationwide economy as a whole and figures from a range of sources, none of which back up your view. While I accept that some will accept just about anything to get a job, particularly those 'fresh off the boat', it doesn't take them long to realise they are actually worth far more in terms of wages than their British counterparts.

Here in Poland the system of technical colleges is still going. To call himself a bricklayer a Pole needs to undergo four years of training. A Brit needs to borrow a trowel.

now you are talking b8ll8cks the polish bricklayers and I have worked with many are no better than and in many cases worse than improvers. they are only any use doing internal blockwork and I have had to get them to take down work because it is so bad,all I can say is there must be some good plasterers in Poland.
You obviously no nothing of what is going on and rely on government fed data as a basis for discussion.If any of the poles I have worked with have done 4 years training it must have been in bull ****

George · 24-01-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranter

now you are talking b8ll8cks the polish bricklayers and I have worked with many are no better than and in many cases worse than improvers. they are only any use doing internal blockwork and I have had to get them to take down work because it is so bad,all I can say is there must be some good plasterers in Poland.
You obviously no nothing of what is going on and rely on government fed data as a basis for discussion.If any of the poles I have worked with have done 4 years training it must have been in bull ****

Know much about the education system in Poland, do you?

Kevin Adamson · 24-01-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

Know much about the education system in Poland, do you?

No nothing ,but I know what a bricklayer looks like and I havn't seen one yet that speaks Polish

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24-01-2008, 07:44 PM	#34 (permalink)
Kevin Adamson Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey Posts: 888 Party: UKIP	[quote=George;458223]Because every piece of evidence shows that EU migrants add to the economy, yet here you are stating the opposite. As you have written but failed to prove. The average wage in the UK for a foreign born worker is £424 per week. For a UK born worker it is £395. How does this lead you to conclude that Eastern Europeans are working for less? All of this rests on the assumption that wages are lower. They are not. The difference in numbers on benefits has also not increased since 2004 so all these Brits being forced out of work are either not claiming benefits or do not exist. George .You seem to only digest facts that you find on government press releases.Wages for Eastern Eureopean workers obviously vary as they do for everyone else.The company I work for uses polish bricklayers .They are paid £90 a day. £40 a day less than local labour. Apart from getting them to call you personally there is no way to prove this, you will either take my word or you wont.