Not just a UK issue

Besoeker · 04-02-2007, 10:26 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame...6316151.stm?ls

t.seeker · 04-02-2007, 10:30 PM

Hi All.

So much for the muslim council of Canada statement that this is an insult to islam & that they know nothing about this religion. Is that so then. Lets see what the quran says to these muslims about women shall we.

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.

That's Circumcision what about other parts of this islamic law for women. How about what it says about a women's body.

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, ‘Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, ‘Yes.' He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'" Or this one, they say that a mans witness is worth twice that of a woman. Well what about this one then, Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."

A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a dirt field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223.

Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228.

A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11.

A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282.

A wife may remarry her ex-husband if and only if she marries another man, they have sex, and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230.

Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24.

A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3.

A Muslim polygamist may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129.

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded—as if domestic violence in any form is acceptable).

The Quran in Sura 4:34.

Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4.

Now what about trust, what about being able to believe what these people tell you is the truth, lets see shall we.

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."
Qur'an 66:1 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

I think that's enough at the moment, I think what I have put here is enough to show that what was said in the other post / link about islam & the way they see women, is true & also that you can not trust what a muslim really says as they are told to lie if its beneficial to them & islam. These people need to be dealt with & they need to be dealt with very soon because if they are not all I can say is God help us all.

Tom Wilde · 04-02-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t.seeker

So much for the muslim council of Canada statement that this is an insult to islam & that they know nothing about this religion. Is that so then. Lets see what the quran says to these muslims about women shall we.

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours}

Hi t.,

Sorry, but so far as I can tell, this isn't actually true. The Koran apparently doesn't even mention female circumcision. You've been had!

If the Koran did require female circumcision, you'd have to ask yourself why it is mainly practiced in Africa, is a minority thing in the middle east and is almost unknown in Muslim countries elsewhere. Do you think that means they all bad Muslims in Iran, Pakistan, and Indonesia?

Take a dekko at this Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Quote:

The practice of FGC [ie female genital cutting] predates both Islam and Christianity and there is no clear understanding of where or why the practice of FGC came into existence. Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharoahs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present [14]. It was most likely spread throughout the Northern parts of Africa with Arab slave traders and is now practiced among Muslims, Christians and Animists.

So it was invented in Egypt and has been on since the days of the Pharoahs. What about Islam, then?

Quote:

Islam
FGC predates Islam and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension [17]. Honor and hygiene are often tied up with the practice, however no form of genital modification and mutilation is mentioned in the Q'uran, in fact quite the contrary: "We have indeed created man[kind] in the best of moulds" (Al-Tin 95:4).[18]In Saudi Arabia at Hijaz, where Islam originated, FGC was practiced during the life-time of Muhammad. To call a man a "circumciser of women" was an insult among the pagan Arabs at the time. Any Islamic allusion to the practice encourages the mildest form of FGC and this was thought to be supported by the Muhammad.

Then there is some stuff about how a minority of scholars believe in the authenticity of a saying of Mohammed arguably permitting the milder forms of circumcision, but there seems to be nobody claiming that the Quran mentions anything about it. Oh, except in Egypt, that is:

Quote:

However there are some who have been adamant about its religious importance amongst Muslims. In 1994, Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hâqq 'Ali Jad Al-Hâqq issued a fatwa stating: "Circumcision is mandatory for men and for women. If the people of any village decide to abandon it, the [village] imam must fight against them as if they had abandoned the call to prayer[22]. The Al-Azhar University in Cairo has issued several fatwas endorsing FGC, in 1949, 1951 and 1981[23]. However, in March 2005, Dr Ahmend Talib, Dean of the Faculty of Sharia at the Al-Azhar University, stated: "All practices of female circumcision and mutilation are crimes and have no relationship with Islam. Whether it involves the removal of the skin or the cutting of the flesh of the female genital organs...it is not an obligation in Islam[24]. Both Christian and Muslim leaders have publicly denounced the practice of FGC since 1998 [25].

Don't get me wrong - I think there is plenty in the Koran to make uncomfortable reading for women. But you seem keen to get the facts right, and the facts on female circumcision seem to be that it is a cultural phenomenon which has in some areas acquired religious overtones, and NOT something that Islam has introduced or encouraged.

t.seeker · 05-02-2007, 01:32 PM

Hi Tom.

I have been had have I, OK how about you reading this little bit of had literature.

Source: Reliance of the Traveller, A translation of the classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law (Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994, p. 59; A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi; Ar. Arabic; n: ... remark by the translator; O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat)

Islamic Law on Female Circumcision
There is a lot of controversy on the issue of Female Circumcision or Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). It is prohibited by law in most Western Countries since it is a horrendous and cruel procedure that women are forced so suffer in many countries, particularly in North East Africa. It has a long tradition that goes back way before the time of Islam. It is practiced in varying degrees (see the links in this section). In Egypt the practice dates back even to the the time of the Pharaohs and it is sadly performed by people of different religious backgrounds. In discussions about this topic, Muslims usually insist that this practice is a cultural issue, and it is not religiously mandated by Islam.

The following quotation is taken from Reliance of the Traveller, Revised edition, amana publications, Beltsville, 1997. The title page informs us that this book is

The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik
by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with
Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices
Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

In this book, in the section titled "THE BODY", we find on page 59 the following entry:

Nuh Hah Mim Keller's Translation Arabic Original

The above used abbreviations mean:

A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi
Ar. Arabic
n: ... remark by the translator
O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat

However what the Arabic actually says is:

Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris
(this is called HufaaD).

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.

Further Reading: Islam and Lying

I am sorry sir but I have done my research & all the information I have posted here is from Koranic & islamic references. I have given you those references as well as you can clearly see. This is islamic & muslim belief & they do act upon it. If they could they would do it to every woman in this world & all because a twisted power mad pedophile said so. No sir it is you who is mistaken not me.

A man who has not read a news paper today in uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today is misinformed

g hall · 05-02-2007, 05:30 PM

Problem is there are many sects in the Islamic world as there are in the Judeo-Christian world - Splitters

As soon as a cleric wants a bit of power then off he goes saying he has the authentic voice of God and everyone else is wrong.

This is why I have problems with organised religion and people who follow like sheep without thinking for themselves

It's mostly about power and control and very occasionally charity and humility

t.seeker · 05-02-2007, 07:11 PM

Hello Mr Hall.

You are right about religion, there are many sects within any religion. Though I have given you clear facts with the ref as well showing that this that I have posted is from the quran, it is from early islamic law & I quote : Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994,.

As you can see this is from shari'ah dated 769 to 1386 ( islam only started in 600 ) & it was revised & may I say carried on in 1994. The information I have given you sir are the facts, are the truth of islam. I am sure that if you would be willing to check my findings & those refs are there for anyone to use to check. You will find that I am correct in what I have stated.

As for your statement about religion again I say you are right. There are a lot of religions out there that demand sheep to follow what is being taught by power mad individuals & islam is clearly one of those religions. Lets face it they can not even have peaceful relations with each other never mind any other race or creed.

I will say though that I have found that if you are willing to search & this is a fact as well. The truth is out there for anyone to find & this is the truth, & that truth demands thought independence & discernment by all who take that path. This is the truth & that truth does not want or require sheep, it is a truth of freewill. I will not say what that is, that is for others to search for & find, but to paraphrase a certain TV prog, the truth is out there & information that proves that is being kept back from the general populations of this world ( & no its not Aliens & flying disc's ) but its there.

The problem with this whole world & the way its run by the powers that be. The majority of people are lead to become sheep & it would be a big surprise for them to ever try to think for themselves or to work something out. They much prefer to be told what to think & what to do, it saves them the effort. There are very few people that do think & search for the answers, that is why there are sites like this with the members they have, but those are few.

Those of us that do think things through & do so for ourselves, those of us that do see the truth of what is going on. We need to get this information out to all we can, they need to see what is happening, so that may be just may be, we can put a stop to this mess before things get to out of hand. Like the EU & there bringing in the constitution without having any referendums & keeping all that hush hush. Like the other laws they have brought in under the table & not one general person in the whole of the EU knows what they are & or what they have done. The way G. Bush with the Mexican & Canadians are putting together one big joint country to rival the EU. It is for people like us to get this info out to as many as possible, as for the sheep. Its for us who can think to try to lead them from oppression back to freedom.

A man who has not read a news paper today they are uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today they are misinformed.

Tom Wilde · 05-02-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t.seeker

Hi Tom.

I have been had have I, OK how about you reading this little bit of had literature.

The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik
by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with
Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices
Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

Yes, but that's not the Koran. That's the opinions of an Islamic scholar a coupla hundred years later. All very interesting, but my point was that this stuff about female mutilation isn't in the Koran, contrary to what you wrote in your first posting of this thread.

If you think female circumcision is such a big thing with Muslims and that they want to impose it on all women in the world, why isn't it practiced in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, etc?

t.seeker · 05-02-2007, 10:28 PM

Hi Tom.

Shari'ah Law runs with the quran. It runs hand in hand with the quran. Shari'ah Law is the law of the quran. As for your statement about :

If you think female circumcision is such a big thing with Muslims and that they want to impose it on all women in the world, why isn't it practiced in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, etc?

If they thought they would get away with it they would use it. I have given you facts sir. I have given you the truth. I have shown you & given you even the refs so that you could go to them & see for yourself.

I am sorry sir but is seems that no matter what proof I gave you & or shown you, you would not accept it whatever was said.

I take it that you are probably one of those who believe that islam is a religion of peace as that is how you come across & its only a small minority that is making it look bad on all the rest. You do not come across as being just someone who is trying to see the truth, because if that was so you would have checked what I had shown you with the refs I gave you & seen quite clearly that what had been posted was & is the truth.

I feel that there is no point in carrying on with this debate as you just have your own opinion & that is that, no other thing or facts or reason will change what you believe & think. Just forget it I would get a more balanced responce from a brick wall. I would take a note of my quote at the bottom of this page if I was you, you might learn something.

A man who has not read a news paper today is uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today is misinformed.

g hall · 06-02-2007, 03:45 PM

I've worked with some muslims and a majority where not into Shari'ah law and quite happy rub along with other religions

Could it be extremists in religions who give it all a bad name?

04-02-2007, 10:26 AM	#1 (permalink)
Besoeker Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,015	Not just a UK issue http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/ame...6316151.stm?ls

06-02-2007, 03:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
g hall Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: erewhon Posts: 5,638	I've worked with some muslims and a majority where not into Shari'ah law and quite happy rub along with other religions Could it be extremists in religions who give it all a bad name? __________________ "That government is best which governs least." "This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries". "To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful." TANSTAAFL TANJ

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04-02-2007, 10:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
t.seeker Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 7	Hi All. So much for the muslim council of Canada statement that this is an insult to islam & that they know nothing about this religion. Is that so then. Lets see what the quran says to these muslims about women shall we. Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD). {bold emphasis ours} The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed. That's Circumcision what about other parts of this islamic law for women. How about what it says about a women's body. Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an." Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, ‘Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, ‘Yes.' He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'" Or this one, they say that a mans witness is worth twice that of a woman. Well what about this one then, Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth." A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a dirt field. The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223. Husbands are a degree above their wives. The Quran in Sura 2:228. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female. The Quran in Sura 4:11. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony. The Quran in Sura 2:282. A wife may remarry her ex-husband if and only if she marries another man, they have sex, and then this second man divorces her. The Quran in Sura 2:230. Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners. The Quran in Sura 4:24. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives. The Quran in Sura 4:3. A Muslim polygamist may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives. The Quran in Sura 4:129. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded—as if domestic violence in any form is acceptable). The Quran in Sura 4:34. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4. Now what about trust, what about being able to believe what these people tell you is the truth, lets see shall we. Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'" Qur'an 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations." Qur'an 66:1 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows." I think that's enough at the moment, I think what I have put here is enough to show that what was said in the other post / link about islam & the way they see women, is true & also that you can not trust what a muslim really says as they are told to lie if its beneficial to them & islam. These people need to be dealt with & they need to be dealt with very soon because if they are not all I can say is God help us all.

05-02-2007, 01:32 PM	#4 (permalink)
t.seeker Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 7	Hi Tom. I have been had have I, OK how about you reading this little bit of had literature. Source: Reliance of the Traveller, A translation of the classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law (Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994, p. 59; A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi; Ar. Arabic; n: ... remark by the translator; O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat) Islamic Law on Female Circumcision There is a lot of controversy on the issue of Female Circumcision or Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). It is prohibited by law in most Western Countries since it is a horrendous and cruel procedure that women are forced so suffer in many countries, particularly in North East Africa. It has a long tradition that goes back way before the time of Islam. It is practiced in varying degrees (see the links in this section). In Egypt the practice dates back even to the the time of the Pharaohs and it is sadly performed by people of different religious backgrounds. In discussions about this topic, Muslims usually insist that this practice is a cultural issue, and it is not religiously mandated by Islam. The following quotation is taken from Reliance of the Traveller, Revised edition, amana publications, Beltsville, 1997. The title page informs us that this book is The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law ‘Umdat al-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller In this book, in the section titled "THE BODY", we find on page 59 the following entry: Nuh Hah Mim Keller's Translation Arabic Original The above used abbreviations mean: A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi Ar. Arabic n: ... remark by the translator O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat However what the Arabic actually says is: Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD). e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)" The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed. Further Reading: Islam and Lying I am sorry sir but I have done my research & all the information I have posted here is from Koranic & islamic references. I have given you those references as well as you can clearly see. This is islamic & muslim belief & they do act upon it. If they could they would do it to every woman in this world & all because a twisted power mad pedophile said so. No sir it is you who is mistaken not me. A man who has not read a news paper today in uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today is misinformed

05-02-2007, 05:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
g hall Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: erewhon Posts: 5,638	Problem is there are many sects in the Islamic world as there are in the Judeo-Christian world - Splitters As soon as a cleric wants a bit of power then off he goes saying he has the authentic voice of God and everyone else is wrong. This is why I have problems with organised religion and people who follow like sheep without thinking for themselves It's mostly about power and control and very occasionally charity and humility

05-02-2007, 07:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
t.seeker Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 7	Hello Mr Hall. You are right about religion, there are many sects within any religion. Though I have given you clear facts with the ref as well showing that this that I have posted is from the quran, it is from early islamic law & I quote : Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994,. As you can see this is from shari'ah dated 769 to 1386 ( islam only started in 600 ) & it was revised & may I say carried on in 1994. The information I have given you sir are the facts, are the truth of islam. I am sure that if you would be willing to check my findings & those refs are there for anyone to use to check. You will find that I am correct in what I have stated. As for your statement about religion again I say you are right. There are a lot of religions out there that demand sheep to follow what is being taught by power mad individuals & islam is clearly one of those religions. Lets face it they can not even have peaceful relations with each other never mind any other race or creed. I will say though that I have found that if you are willing to search & this is a fact as well. The truth is out there for anyone to find & this is the truth, & that truth demands thought independence & discernment by all who take that path. This is the truth & that truth does not want or require sheep, it is a truth of freewill. I will not say what that is, that is for others to search for & find, but to paraphrase a certain TV prog, the truth is out there & information that proves that is being kept back from the general populations of this world ( & no its not Aliens & flying disc's ) but its there. The problem with this whole world & the way its run by the powers that be. The majority of people are lead to become sheep & it would be a big surprise for them to ever try to think for themselves or to work something out. They much prefer to be told what to think & what to do, it saves them the effort. There are very few people that do think & search for the answers, that is why there are sites like this with the members they have, but those are few. Those of us that do think things through & do so for ourselves, those of us that do see the truth of what is going on. We need to get this information out to all we can, they need to see what is happening, so that may be just may be, we can put a stop to this mess before things get to out of hand. Like the EU & there bringing in the constitution without having any referendums & keeping all that hush hush. Like the other laws they have brought in under the table & not one general person in the whole of the EU knows what they are & or what they have done. The way G. Bush with the Mexican & Canadians are putting together one big joint country to rival the EU. It is for people like us to get this info out to as many as possible, as for the sheep. Its for us who can think to try to lead them from oppression back to freedom. A man who has not read a news paper today they are uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today they are misinformed.

05-02-2007, 10:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
t.seeker Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 7	Hi Tom. Shari'ah Law runs with the quran. It runs hand in hand with the quran. Shari'ah Law is the law of the quran. As for your statement about : If you think female circumcision is such a big thing with Muslims and that they want to impose it on all women in the world, why isn't it practiced in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, etc? If they thought they would get away with it they would use it. I have given you facts sir. I have given you the truth. I have shown you & given you even the refs so that you could go to them & see for yourself. I am sorry sir but is seems that no matter what proof I gave you & or shown you, you would not accept it whatever was said. I take it that you are probably one of those who believe that islam is a religion of peace as that is how you come across & its only a small minority that is making it look bad on all the rest. You do not come across as being just someone who is trying to see the truth, because if that was so you would have checked what I had shown you with the refs I gave you & seen quite clearly that what had been posted was & is the truth. I feel that there is no point in carrying on with this debate as you just have your own opinion & that is that, no other thing or facts or reason will change what you believe & think. Just forget it I would get a more balanced responce from a brick wall. I would take a note of my quote at the bottom of this page if I was you, you might learn something. A man who has not read a news paper today is uninformed. A man who has read a news paper today is misinformed.